An/dm cards

[John Flynn]

Hi All,

I have had 3 AN/DM cards on my Tascam DM4800 for a couple of years but only decided to put them to use in the last few days.

I purchased 3 snakes and a 24 channel patch bay to give me 24 more ins which I have sent to the 2nd layer.
These ins will be handy for use with line level equipment and will save me having to plug cables into the back of the desk etc.

My question?
I see the faders on the 2nd layer work with the cards (As i have routed them that way) and am aware that the digital trim controls can be used to boost level if required.
Is the line in level on these cards EXACTLY THE SAME as the line in inputs for the first 24 channels on the desk? Same converters, level of input etc?

I only had a short time yesterday and checked all 24 ins were working but I just thought i'd ask any of you guys out there who use these cards and maybe what typical uses you have found for them?

Thanks in advance

John

 

[skier]

I don't know if the level on these cards is EXACTLY THE SAME as the line in inputs for the first 24 channels on the desk — they're certainly very close and, as you mention, can be trim,med to be whatever you want or need. I have several syths going into mine. That said, there is some gain available, but not enough to be mic preamps. They do sound quite good — to my ears, similar to the desk.

 

[John Flynn]

Yes, Thanks for that. I only got them set up yesterday and the wife was shouting at me to get in for my dinner lol.
I merely ran an iPhone through the patch bay and thought the level was less than i got from the desk's own line ins but i would need to do a proper test to determine if there was much in it or not. The digital trim is available for boost and if one wanted to use a mic you would need outboard pres of course. Thought it would be handy to attach line level gear in and to save plugging jacks into the back of the desk.
Will learn more when i try it out properly. At least it's up and wired

John

 

[Tonepad]

I finally added a IF-An/Dm board to my DM4800. I must say it was great right out of the box. Mine was set at factory default trim and I do find a difference between this config and what I was doing running my line ins thru the back jacks and previously doing the half jack insert returns workaround. There is less gain on the fader this way, and of course not trim pot, but I'm able to run my 500 series preamp/comp chains (along with other outboard boxes) a bit hotter to make up the difference. All in all it seems a cleaner and more open audio signal workflow than running thru the regular line ins...which flow thru part of the mic pre IC. I'll probably run it with the default trims as-is to work with the increased headroom.

Please LMK what your findings are.

 

[Tonepad]

Hmm as I work thru my various chains I found one 500 series pair (pre/comp) that is not driving the AN/DM very well. I will check cables tomorrow and swap in another comp...since there's plenty of level from the Pre alone (a Eisen/Neve clone feeding a Pico comp...which had plenty of gain feeding the normal DM line-ins). I swapped in a Komet comp and that's better...but this makes me think I might try the onboard switch options and set them all to -11. I think I have it right that with the default being -16, that -11 would be more gain than -20...being that these numbers are attenuation ranges...smaller number=less/higher number=more attenuation.

 

[ampsarus]

I'm glad you have a working signal path that you like! :: thumbs up ::

 

[skier]

Yes, a smaller negative db number has a higher signal level than a larger negative db number.

Just remember that, all things considered, running a higher level signal typically results in a higher S/N ratio and a cleaner signal (presuming your output is clean and the input is not overdriven). Therefore, I always use whatever is the highest common standard when 2 or more options are available on the output device and the input device it's driving.

So, for example, when both devices support the +4dbu and the -10dbv formats, I'll use the +4dbu format. Either would work, but the +4dbu format also provides better S/N when the runs get longer. However, even with short runs, because the signal level is hotter, the signal will be at a higher level compared to any noise and any other signals that may be induced into the channel. Just don't over drive the input of the card. Essentially, this is simple analog gain staging fundamentals.

Good luck!

 

[Tonepad]

Yep gain staging is a 101 type thing. I pulled the card today and set the inputs to -11, and the gain staging for my 8 series 500 pre/comp chains seems to be happier...I don't have to drive them too hard (all the chains have input and output gains to work with). In fact I'm about where I was when I was coming into the DM4800 line ins. On the line ins I was trimming the DM up to about 10 o'clock. At -16 on the AN/DM, I was having to gain up on the 500 units a bit too much for my tastes. Some of the 500 pres like a hot input but that's sort of a "color" type thing. The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle as it almost always is. BTW my studio is all +4 spec for the analog signal flow. I really like having this option in my DM4800 now. It always has bugged me that the stock line ins go thru the mic input amp and not a dedicated line amp. The half jack option was always to fussy where the half jack trick would sometimes lose a good connection. The AN/DM is a true solution....may consider another since I have a 4th slot free.

 

[skier]

Glad it's working for you! I have one AN/DM card and I like it. But before you buy a 2nd, you may want to consider another option:

I also use a Focusrite OctoPre MkII Dynamic. It provides an additional 8 in and 8 out. The inputs can be used balanced (XLR or TRS) or unbalanced TS. This device connects to the DM via the DM's built-in toslink optical ports (ADAT format). The OctoPre is very clean and sounds great. It's available with built in compression on each channel for $800 U.S. There is also the same unit, but without compression; it'is referred to as the OctoPre MkII and is about $500 U.S.

If you only need line level input, the AN/DM card is fine. However, the OctoPre has a trim on each channel and also allows microphone gain levels. Plus, it has built in phantom power. None of us knows where TASCAM is going and what will be supported for these cards and also our mixers, so I have some concerns about the cards. But Focusrite is definitely committed to such devices and releasing new equipment all the time.

I don't know what your needs are, but I thought that I'd provide this info so you can make the best decision for you.

I hope this helps. Take care.

 

[Tonepad]

Focusrite is good kit and is yet another amazing option for the DM series. Tascam really future proofed these mixers. Here's a brief rundown of my studio:

My day job is the Sound Supervisor for the TV series NCIS Los Angeles. For that I run Pro Tools 12HD from an HD i/o via TDIF (built-ins) to the 4800 for editing and sound design. This is using a MacPro dual Xeon machine. When I'm in 5.1 predub mode I have the surround card installed that drives a Blue Sky Surround speaker array. As this is an edit/sound design/mixing rig I don't commonly have any input sourcing. They exist just in case of course. I mix in PT with a Eucon Artist Mix and Control and the DM4800 in HUI mode (for Aux sends which is a fantastic option) and of course using clip gain a bunch. My Predub work is with Loop Group/Walla and Foley...takes the better part of a day to get those right and saves a bunch of time on our full 2 man mix stage (full Avid Icon surface there) where we only have 1 1/2 days to do a full feature type build/mix. Bottom line it all works and is dependable.

Now since I don't believe in mixing too many unrelated tasks per computer, I create my own guitar based MX using a separate 6 core Intel PC box via Firewire to a IF/FW board in the DM. Because I'm recording in a hybrid analog/digital flow ie. Mics on a collection of tube amplifiers into various 500 series devices/chains...API, Neve, Rupert Neve, Capi, Universal Audio, AEA, Lindell, Warm etc...this is why I wanted to add the AN/DM option. Those outboard pre/comp chains aren't going to work well with interfaces unless they are true +4 line ins, both IMO and IME. This has always been my beef with the DM topology of the onboard line ins using part of the DM Mic amp, and the half insert returns workaround blows as well.. Again I mix in the box for this work using the Eucon surfaces...since the DM's USB i/o is dedicated to the Mac/PT config. I don't do as much work with this flow since it's not my full time gig...just the sandbox of someone who's been playing 50 years and able to support that passion with the TV Pro Audio work. I'm very fortunate to have been able to do this.

I like the idea of the ADAT option...always have but who knows if that stays alive going forward. At least it's not dependant on a now non existent computer port/card as in the case of Firewire. Indeed I've frozen my computers at the firewire point in time including my 3rd audio rig...a late 2011 MacBook Pro...the last actual pro spec laptop that Apple made. Thereafter Apple forced everyone to Thunderbolt and a hub solution as well by removing Ethernet. My colleagues and I are starting to horde these as the last Holy Grail solution to true Pro Mobility. Sorry I just don't want a hub and a wad of cables on my laptop station behind the mixers on our stage. It's bad enough as it is now, though it only requires an outboard FW800 drive (Lacies or homegrown OWC enclosures) and that dang PTHD iLok dongle. Rant over :}}=

 

[skier]

Thanks for insight into your background! Obviously, you didn’t need my advice about the Focusrite OctoPre. We don’t always know the experience of a poster, so I was just trying to offer you additional options.

No worries on the rant – I share your frustration on disappearing support for protocols, connectors, features, etc. Look at how jacks are being removed from new designs for everything from computers to cell phones. Now we need adapters to keep using our existing accessories. One would think that, perhaps the newest USB incarnation, USB-C3, would solve the problem by being the end all. After all, because it has compatibility with USB-1, USB-2, Display Port, 10Gb/s speeds, interoperability with Thunderbird 3, 100W powering capability, and adapter cables for all these interconnections, one would think this new format would be the answer to all of the foregoing problems. Well, think again, there are at least 8 or 9 versions of USB-C3. So, the nonsense not only continues, it worsens. Who thinks up these things? Let’s face it, when you have multiple standards for the same thing, in reality, you have no standard at all!

So, like you, I tend to lock down systems for a while, if just so I can get work done without continually introducing new problems. I’ve also started working with as few plug-ins as possible, because each one I add is another thing I need to maintain to some rev level just to keep all these things running at the same time on the same OS version – what a stupid way to use computers of any kind, from desktops and laptops to tablets and smart phones. We users allow this to exist because we just keep buying and accepting updates and upgrades every few days or weeks. At least a locked down system keeps working. And then I replace everything every few years or so. It may cost a little more, but I suspect that losing my sanity would ultimately cost me more. Ok, end of my rant……for now….

 

[Tonepad]

Of course the other rap against ADAT is from the folks wanting a higher sample rate. I'm at the 24b/48k spec so that wouldn't be me. Sample rates above the 24/48 limit would need the S/MUX spec which would get a user to 96k @ only 4 Chs. I haven't read much about anyone doing this, esp since the IF-FW spec does 96k @ full 32 channel width if the user desires. Again the problem will be when FW and/or ADAT or TDIF for that matter are retired. I may have to become even more of a gear hoarder.

 

[skier]

I work at 24/48 also — today's codecs are quite good at gear-boxing down to 44.1 with minimal artifacts. And I can't hear the difference between a sample rate of 48k, 96k, or 192k. More importantly, no one I've ever tested or heard about has been able to hear above 20kHz, and blind testing hasn't sown anyone having been able to do so. Finally, most people today seem to listen to music in the worst ways, with ear-buds or on the speakers of cell phones and tablets. Therefore, there seems little point in using up the disk space to use higher sample rates, so ADAT's 48k limitation doesn't really seem like one.