Recording through mixer vs. direct into PortaStudio?

Do you use a mixer in front of your PortaStudio?


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I haven't seen any XLR patch bays which allow you to patch into the middle of the signal. That wouldn't make any sense anyway since what can you imagine to insert into the signal beside an attenuator or booster? The XLR patchbays that I've seen serve only the purpose of bringing the jacks out to the front. Which is still super handy and important.

Hosa makes those modular patch bays so you can choose which of the ports are XLR vs. which are 1/4". ART makes a patchbay (model P16) that's just a row of 16 XLR's from front to back (no chance to patch in or out as I mentioned).

Once everything is uniformly at line-level (as Arjan mentioned) then patching in and out makes sense and becomes useful.

@shredd I know it's another $50 or so but everyone swears by these Samson patchbays above and beyond the Behringer model you posted. They apparently last a lifetime, whereas, the Behringer stuff, not so much. If I was buying again (mine is an ART which is just ok) I would buy one of these after hearing so much about them:

http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/processors/s-class/s-patch-plus/
 
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I just realized that the PortaStudio's combined XLR/TRS connections could very much complicate the use of a patch bay.. But since you use a mixer inbetween anyway it may not be a big deal. For others I'd say it would be best to keep some channels for XLR and others for TRS use with a patch bay

I agree with that. That sounds like the only possible solution.

Maybe someday someone will invent a combo-jack to combo-jack patchbay ha ha.
 
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I agree with that. That sounds like the only possible solution.

Maybe someday someone will invent a combo-jack to combo-jack patchbay ha ha.

Someone would have to invent a dual connector with a Line level signal on the 1/4" with an XLR surrounding it.
 
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@BazzBass said:
I use both xlr and 1/4 inch inputs into my 32sd, so rather than a patchbay I just bought some 1 foot extension cables to bring the inputs to the side of the desk,making it easier to access them.

I said, in Post #27 (and referenced in Post #29):
If you must use an XLR (or more) then I suggest keeping cables plugged into them and marking the other end and keeping those out in front so you can find them easily.

@Brody said:
Once everything is uniformly at line-level (as Arjan mentioned) then patching in and out makes sense and becomes useful.

I said, in post #27:
@@shredd, .... As long as you have some kind of external mic pre then you can skip using the XLR inputs on the DP and just use the Line inputs for everything - and connect them to the batchbay.

A lot of us are saying the same thing. Do we need an executive summary?
 
Yes, you can certainly connect unbalanced signals/cables to a TRS patch bay, the sleeve will simply have two contact points ISO one.. Maybe something else to consider before getting a patch bay is that you'll need to buy (or much better, make) connecting cables. I soldered a lot of XLR to TRS cables to go from outboard gear - many units only have XLR ins and outs - to the patch bays.

@Arjan P saved me some explaining - thank you.

I'll give a very simplified rundown of the difference and why it matters. It comes down to balanced/unbalanced. All that means is that a balanced signal is a 3-terminal connection with a differential signal of equal magnitude on 2 wires but the signals are of opposite polarity to each other. The 3rd wire is for a shield to protect the signal on the 2 wires. An unbalanced signal is a 2-terminal connection where the signal it present on 1 wire with a ground return. The ground return is the shield, much like the balanced cable, with the exception that audio is riding on the shield in the unbalanced cable.

OK, what does that mean? It means that XLR and TRS are both balanced transmission line connectors. The added advantage of this system is that any interference that is radiating the cable tends to be cancelled out due to common mode rejection, i.e. since the signals on the wire are positive and negative (out of polarity), any signal of equal magnitude on both wires will be cancelled out, leaving only the audio. Stated in a way that musicians can understand, the noise is "phase cancelled" out. Cables where the 2 wires are twisted together gain even greater common mode rejection benefits. I always by "twisted shielded pair" wires and preferrable with a foil shield and a "drain wire" for the shield signal ground.

[Positive signals are referred to as "high" and negative signals are referred to as "low"]

One thing that must be taken into consideration is that with a balanced cable, there are 2 signals and a ground wire. One cannot simply connect those 2 signals together (a direct short), nor is it good practice to connect one of those signals to ground (shorting one side of the amplifier to ground).

If you plus a TRS cable into a TS jack, then 1 side of that balanced signal is now shorted to ground. Depending upon the design of the connected circuit, something bad may or may not happen. Some devices will have nomenclature such as "TS or TRS" so you know its been designed for that. In general I avoid that situation by making my own cables. When going from TRS to TS I leave the low terminal floating (there are other uses for that terminal that are beyond the scope of this discussion). When I bought by Tascam monitors I was surprised that the recommended cable was TRS to RCA with one side shorted to ground. I made my own cable and left the low side floating.

Guitar signals do not have the advantage of being balanced and therefore are not noise cancelling.

The best way to convert between balanced and unbalanced signals are to use some kind of a converter device for that purpose.

Headphones are unbalanced because instead of a differential signal carrying the same audio but with polarity reversed, each wire carries a separate, unbalanced signal between each wire and ground (the shield). That is a 3-terminal connection also, which is sometimes why you will hear people say (inaccurately) that a TSS connector is "stereo" and that a TS connector is "mono."

Console Insert jacks use TRS connectors. Inserting a TRS plug into the Insert jack on a console breaks the "normal" (because the jack is a switching jack) and the jack outputs an unbalanced signal to the cable that is connected to it. That is very much like a headphone cable, but instead of L/R + shield, this special dual cable used 1 wire + shield as a Send to the outboard device, and the other wire + shield as the Return from the outboard device. Your console diagram will give you more information. Typically the wires used are Red + Shield and some other color such as Black or White + Shield. Insert cables have 2 wires connected to the TRS connector. I won't get into it here but there are other cool things you can do with Insert jacks and cables, such as pushing a cable 1/2 in but not breaking the normal.

Hopefully you'll now understand what @Arjan P means when he says in Post #36:

TS patch bays would IMO be best used for physical TRS mixer inserts (where the signals are usually unbalanced).

There is a very good article on Wikipedia that explains this all very well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio
 
@Brody you'll notice that I quoted your comment about what @Arjan P said about line level signals and nothing else. I didn't need to copy the entire paragraph, only what was relevant, and that is, a lot of us are saying the same thing (even if it wasn't you who originally said it).

Kinda proves my point though - this is getting circular.
 
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this is getting circular
Gonna haveta agree w @-mjk- ; though I'll take some of the blame: my OP was my pondering how people did it - whether it was better/wiser/more effective/beneficial to run inputs through a mixer, THEN to the DP's inputs...or record DIRECTLY into the DP's inputs.
That "evolved" into a discussion about the merits/uses of patch bays, which at this point in my process is several levels above my capacity to understand/implement.
While VERY educational for me...it definitely turned this thread into a silly-session.
SORRY guys...:oops:
 
While VERY educational for me...it definitely turned this thread into a silly-session.
SORRY guys...:oops:

I wouldn't say that @shredd. Your OP and subsequent questions have been good. Certainly no need to apologize.
 
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Certainly no need to apologize.
Thnx @-mjk- , appreciate the support. But while I surely mean well and try to be a good forum-citizen...this thing kinda did spin way out from the OP/question...
 
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