Scenes, Sections, Virtual Tracks and Bounce

lastmonk

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For my last couple of projects I did not use Virtual Tracks for Alternate Takes. I used Virtual Tracks as Scenes and Song Sections, and for me and my projects its worked nice. So I thought I would share.

I had a couple of sections in a song where a keyboard and two saxophones needed this funky delay. They did not need the delay in the other sections of the song. They needed different EQ with the delay effect. I had a similar situation on another project with vocals and a guitar trio where the sections of the song needed to have different effects, EQ, etc.

Some of our seasoned DP users may already do this, but for me it was a nice discovery.

I decided to use the virtual tracks as sections. You know Intro, Verse1, Chorus, Improv, Verse2, Chorus, Ending, etch

with each level of Virtual Track representing A section. For instance on Each Track's Virtual Track 3, I recorded the Chorus. VT4 I recorded Improv, etc. I then bounced each Section(VT Level) to a stereo pair with the appropriate effects, eq, etc applied. On both projects I ended up with 6 sections, each with their own effects, eq, levels etc. That I could then "using copy and paste" place in any order I wanted and repeat sections as many times as I wanted. Since the sections were already recorded and bounced to stereo tracks. I used the Virtual Tracks as Sections and created my own Arranger Chain. If I used one track's virtual track 2 for the chorus, I used all the track's virtual 2s for the chorus. If I used virtual track 4 on one track for a certain scene effect, I used virtual track 4 for all tracks (where it applied) for the same scene. That is I used the virtual tracks in levels (consistently) That worked for me.

Likewise I used the sections as scenes! With each scene and track having their own EQ, effects, mixer levels, etc. Of course the settings on the mixer, dynamics, and effects on the DP24/32 are what ever they are currently set to. BUT! when you bounce them to a track (virtual or otherwise) they are permanently recorded in that track. No, you won't be able to bring up a virtual track and have it restore the settings that were in effect when that virtual track was recorded(That would be nice Tascam!) But bouncing the virtual tracks do capture whatever settings are being applied as insert effects, or send effects EQ, etc to the bounce track etc.


Naturally someone will quickly point out how much easier this all is in a DAW. And my response of late has been F#cK Daws:LOL: I'm getting it all done with my DP 24 and my Model 12 occasionally aided and abetted by my DP-02:cool:

I just wanted to share this with folks who didn't already know, that bouncing, and virtual tracks together with the copy, move features of the DP 24/32 can be used to set up scenes (of a sort), sections, arranger tracks, and section chains. The Bounce feature allow you to record the state of the machine for any group of tracks, including fader groups, at any time and preserve of all of that in virtual tracks to be used in whatever way you see fit.

I suspect the bounce feature and virtual tracks are likely very under used. Using bounce, scenes, sections, virtual tracks, in conjunction with the stereo tracks, opens all kinds of automation possibilities, arranging possibilities during the DP24/32 mixdown and mastering process.:geek: I think we're only limited by our imagination, patience, and persistence. The portastudio is more than an adventure its a lifestyle:p:D:rolleyes:


So I guess the moral of the story (at least for me it was) Don't just look at virtual tracks for alternative takes of a performance. They can be used to capture scenes, song sections, special samples, arrangement chains, etc. When used with the bounce feature, and the editing functions it basically gives us 240/320 tracks that we can put, and place, move, duplicate, and shift, compress, eq, effect in any manner we choose;)

Viva La Vida Porta Studio
 
Naturally someone will quickly point out how much easier this all is in a DAW. And my response of late has been F#cK Daws:LOL:
Amen to that, brutha...that has ALWAYS been my response. And I've been trying to get a daw to work 1/4 as well as my PortaStudios for about 20 years...

AND: might I add that I'm soundly impressed by your imaginative use of MTR capabilities to accomplish the desired construction of your song/s. I bow to your brilliance.
 
Thanks for taking the time to write about the creative use of VTs, @lastmonk. You didn't mention anything about the temporal displacement of the sections. If you are doing all those sections on top of each other in the same time selection, that would seem like a nightmare to manage.

Here is a link to an old post, explaining how to do a bunch of sub mixed sections that one could cut together, so they are essentially mixing stereo mixes at the end process:

http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/share-dp-24-32-sd-production-tips.5747/#post-29234

The main advantage of temporal displacement is that everything lines up if one uses the same in and out points, when mixing the sections.
 
Great info above, thanks!

I'll admit to suffering from a little of my own "temporal displacement" at the moment, and I will have to re-read the above several times over, but I like what it accomplishes and will have to play around with it. Thanks for sharing.

Old No7
 
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Thanks for taking the time to write about the creative use of VTs, @lastmonk. You didn't mention anything about the temporal displacement of the sections. If you are doing all those sections on top of each other in the same time selection, that would seem like a nightmare to manage.

Here is a link to an old post, explaining how to do a bunch of sub mixed sections that one could cut together, so they are essentially mixing stereo mixes at the end process:

http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/share-dp-24-32-sd-production-tips.5747/#post-29234

The main advantage of temporal displacement is that everything lines up if one uses the same in and out points, when mixing the sections.

Thanx for the link., but my approach is a little different.

Notation: VTX-Y (VT= Virtual Track, X = Virtual Track Level, Y = Track)

For instance lets say I have 3 sections, 4 measures Piano, Bass and Drums Track1, Track2, Track3 respectively


Section A is Piano, Bass, Drums on VT1-1, VT1-2,VT1-3 respectively

I record that section. I then bounce those tracks to 13/14. Section A is done.

Section B is Piano Bass Drums on VT2-1, VT2-2, VT2-2
I record that section I then bounce those tracks to 15/16 Section B is done

Section C is Piano Bass, Drums on VT3-1, VT3-2,VT3-3

I record that section I then bounce those tracks to 17/18 Section C is done.


  • I could then solo 13/14 and listen to only Section A (maybe its an intro)
  • I could then solo 15/16 and listen to only Section B ( maybe its a vamp)
  • I could then solo 17/18 and listen to only Section C ( maybe its an ending)


Tracks 13/14, 15/16, 17/18 all start at 0.0 That doesn't matter., Because I'm going to copy them (with their Start and End points) to a TO point on tracks 23/24 in any order and any number of times I want. Tracks 13/14, 15/16, 17/18 are not meant to play at the same time:cool: They represent Sections A,B, & C or Scenes 1,2, & 3 or both depending on how I use them.


The value for me in this process was that Section A could have different effects, eq's , levels, fader group moves, than Section B, and Section B could be different from section C, and I used the bounce and Virtual tracks to more-or-less capture my scene/section. What this means is I can always just pick the corresponding Virtual tracks and re-mix the section.
The trick is to use the first virtual track, for each instrument for Section A, the second virtual track for each instrument for Section B, and the third virtual track for each instrument for Section C and so on (that keeps everything straight and prevents the nightmare):LOL:

So although the Virtual Tracks are stacked I've bounced each VT level to a stereo fader, that ultimately starts at zero, I then effectively create a pattern chain, by coping the bounced stereo tracks to a master stereo track in any order, and in any number of repetitions, using the Start, Stop, and TO, points of my choice.

@-mjk- thanks for the links, but that process is different from what I did. I probably didn't explain my self properly.:oops:

At some point, when time and my schedule permits I'm going to post a series of videos on this technique, and a few others that have helped me over the last couple of years. All the techniques involve the use of Bounce, Virtual Tracks, and Track Edit, and sometimes using Send Effect 2 in unexpected ways.

I'm not using Virtual Tracks as Takes, I'm using sets of virtual tracks to represent a Section or A Scene. The temporal displacement is not an issue, because 'each set' of Virtual Tracks are independent on the time line;)
 
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Woww @lastmonk, you must really, really hate DAWs to come up with such an intricate scheme to avoid them! ;)

No, seriously, this sounds like a great and flexible way to construct a song and get to, possibly, various versions. But it surely needs a clear overview of what you are doing and where what is recorded. Do you use a typical kinda track sheet for this?
 
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@Arjan P To be honest, I don't hate DAWS, I just prefer dedicated ones. Like My Tascam DP 24 is an Audio DAW. My Motif XF8 is a Midi-Audio DAW. Remember these:

https://www.roland.com/us/products/vs-2480/
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/korg-d3200
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/akai-dps24

These are no nonsense hardware versions of Pro-tools, Cubase, Logic, Studio One, FL, Ableton, etc.

I don't hate DAWs. What I hate is the constant browsers upgrades, OS upgrades, crashes, lag, dongles, subscription, DRM locks, limited licenses, plugin-paralysis bull$#it that all introduce incompatibility and forced upgrades (like them or not) that all get in the way of me making my music and being creative. I hate the vendors that just keep adding and piling on features and complexity (even when its not needed) because they have to keep their doors open. It has nothing to do with what I need as a musician or an engineer or a producer or a composer.. They need to keep selling product or subscriptions whether the musician/engineer/producer already has what they need or not.:mad: And they won't allow you to sit out:mad:

I started with Cubase 5. Over the years I got FN good at it. But today Cubase 12 is barely recognizable. My music composing process is roughly the same as it was when I got Cubase 5. But somehow Cubase 12 now has hundreds of additional checkboxes, options, scores of additional menus, dozens of additional dialog boxes. Its barely recognizable. I'm basically a Jazz/Classical guy nothing that I'm doing in my music warrants a 1000 new features:LOL: All of which I have to routinely update my browser, then my operating system, and then ultimately update my computer to keep using. And if I'm using something that requires a subscription:mad::geek::evil::LOL: Now I gotta pay monthly, or yearly just to play, compose, or mix my music on my own equipment. And the whole hustle is designed to force me to update my DAW:rolleyes::LOL:

@Arjan P with hardware DAWs, I avoid all of those shenanigans. Its not that I went through all of that intricate scheme just to avoid using DAWs. For me that intricate scheme is a matter of financial, emotional and creative survival:oops:

With Tascam DP 24 if I need more effects I take advantage of Effect Send 2 as an aux out and connect with external hardware gear, or with VSTs, Audiobus, or whatever and run the signal back in. So my workflow is only constrained by 1/4 cables going out of my DP 24 and 1/4 cables going in. And those 1/4 cables don't need to be upgraded, they are always compatible, they don't charge a subscription, they don't require a dongle, and they don't need the latest security patched browser to function:geek: Motu 8x8 Interfaces, and Analog Patch bays just keep working decade in and decade out.

YES! I always use a Tracksheet, Session sheet. But if you remember I use LibreOffice Spread Sheet for my Track/Session Sheet. That allows me to attach, text documents, jpgs, mpegs, photos, seating charts, and anything else that was involved in the tracking or the session. I'm also able to store the finished master wav, mp3, and midi files within the spread sheet because its supports compound documents. In addition to that I can also store my custom design synth voices, and orchestral templates, and score with the track/session sheet. So I've got total recall and because Libre Office is open-source I can choose when or if I want to upgrade or I can keep both of my fully loaded 2012 MacPros as long as I like. I can run the version of Mac OSX that I prefer, not the one that latest DAW version xxx.x requires.

I'm really likin

https://tascam.com/us/product/sonicview_16xp/top


That's my next stop. I will probably trade up from my model 12:LOL: I'm slowly convincing my wife that the Tascam Sonicview will do wonders for our garden:)

Sonicview + DP 24 will probably be the match made in heaven for me


And besides my Virtual Tracks, Sections/ Scenes and Bouncing on the Tascam DP 24 is my idea of fun;)
 
I don't hate DAWS, I just prefer dedicated ones
AMEN @lastmonk ...your post ^ sums up my entire life experience with recording.
I'm slowly convincing my wife that the Tascam Sonicview will do wonders for our garden
Ossum. Whut-ev-a works, riiight?

Sounds like how I talked myself into my HD12-28 by convincing myself it'd make me better-looking and more attractive to the opposite sex.
Until I realized I could accomplish the same thing with a trip to the liquor store...:rolleyes::LOL:
And she'd have been much happier with the outlay!!!
 
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Thanx for the link., but my approach is a little different.
@lastmonk has clearly thought this out and found a system/approach that works for him. I'm ALL for this - finding an approach/methodology/workflow that works for you...that's pretty much how I do things.
That said - this seemingly complex methodology was tremendously confusing for me at first. I had this thread open in my browser for days, and re-read it a buncha times trying to grasp what was happening.
And - once I finally wrapped my pea-brain around it - it made sense. My approach to "parts"/sections has often been either punch in/outs, or using separate tracks and mixing later...but his approach very effectively addresses the question of how to use differing FX, EQ, dynamix, panning, etc on different sections.
Me likey.:cool:
 
@Arjan P To be honest, I don't hate DAWS, I just prefer dedicated ones. Like My Tascam DP 24 is an Audio DAW. My Motif XF8 is a Midi-Audio DAW. Remember these:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/akai-dps24
Oh, I surely remember my years with the Akai DPS16 and DPS12 before that (with Jaz-disks, not so great an idea..). The DPS had free assignable virtual tracks, so they were not behind one single channel but could be freely placed allover. Made some great recordings with it, but then found the hassle of combining it with Cubase for MIDI and synths too much hassle and too limiting.

So when I moved to my current studio I went Cubase all the way and didn't look back. Yes, OS and other updates can be annoying, but I couldn't be happier with everything that comes with this flexible DAW. And though Cubase 12 sure is much different from v.5 - you don't have to use everything in it. All in all it has only brought an easier workflow. And, I never use software that has a subscription scheme and don't need to either.

But yes, I did love working with the dedicated hardware DAW that the Akai was and I could work on it almost blinfolded. But I'm also very happy with my current setup. To each their own!
 
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As far as DAWs go Cubase, Nuendo are top of the line. And when I absolutely have to use a DAW Cubase is my goto

For instance, when I have to convert audio to midi. I simply cannot do that on DP/24, or in my Midi studio. There Cubase saves the day. When I have to do advanced wave form analysis or manipulation Cubase, and Audacity save the day. Any kind of detailed spectral analysis or advanced noise removal, again, Cubase is there. I have a few folks that I work with that only speak Nuendo, so I interact with them mostly through my Cubase knowledge and files. So there are many times that Cubase, Audacity and Sound Track Pro save my bacon. But these are never really related the the music composing, arranging, song writing, or the performance. On those rare occasions that I do use a DAW, it most certainly has to do with Post Mastering processses, or Sound Design (prior to composing performing, or arranging)

I do believe we're quickly approaching a every-thing-and-the-kitchen-sink feature set when it comes to DAWs. If you didn't grow up on Cubase, and you walk in on it for the first time i.e. Cubase 12 is the first thing you see:eek: Well:rolleyes: The average newcomer will:cry:


Cubase in 1989


MT_89_09_steinberg_cu_large.jpg


Cubase today

C105_01-rIKWvCRUXAE4dFLtKfJ4qTgNlZHPrjFZ.jpg



Try to find the Record Button in today's Cubase :D:LOL::LOL::p:mad:

In the original cubase, the transport section Rewind, Forward, Stop, Play, Record, was easy to see, and find. After all the primary function of Cubase was to Sequence Midi, and then simply record Audio. But Now:eek::LOL: WTF:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL: I was watching Cubase Club stream the other day and my wife walked in, took one look at the screen , she laughed, and just left the room:X3:
 
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