Using the mastering multiband compression for a single track?

isoneedacoffee

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Hi, I've searched all over and can't find the answer to this question, not even in the "definitive summary of effects" thread. I would like to add multiband compression to one track. For the purpose of a clear example, let's say a kick drum. The advantage of using this compressor over the "dynamic" or "guitar" compressor would be the level of tweakability over various frequencies. My questions therefore are:
1) Can I do mastering of just a kick drum track?
2) Does the kick drum track need to be in stereo for the mastering process?
3) Can I monitor the effect of the compression on the kick drum within the song mix and make adjustments in real time?
4) Without the use of a computer, can that mastered track be easily imported back to the song if there are tracks available?

I know I will want to use compression, and I have been looking at external compressors to perhaps make my life easier. But if I can more or less easily use the mastering compression instead of buying a quality external compressor it could be something to really consider.
 
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I don't have time for a more detailed answer, but...

You may want to consider using the Dynamics Effect compressor which is applied to the inputs(s). You will not be able to use the multi-band compressor in Mastering mode without exporting that "effected kick drum track" to a computer and then importing it back to the machine.

But *you can*... simply send your kick drum track to the send bus and patch it back to an input and add compression while you re-record that track back onto a fresh unused track. This is almost certainly the best way to skin that cat.
 
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The easiest way to do what you want to do is to go to Mixdown mode and record the whole track as a mix and then Master it with the multiband compression how you like it. Take that mixdown file and reimport it back into the machine. I do that all the time. There's a discussion on that very technique in the production techniques thread.
 
@isoneedacoffee , what did you do? Did you buy outboard gear or use the Mastering compression?
 
Thanks for the responses everyone. I really want to avoid my computer. So, tt looks like tomorrow I'll be picking up a used compressor limiter, the Symetrix 150, for a good price From what I've read that should work really well on drums and bass. Perhaps vocals? In the future I'd like to get a smoother compressor like an ART VLA for options. I contacted TASCAM about their onboard compressor and they have yet to respond. I wanted to know what type of colour it imparts, if anything. What it may have been modelled on, etc.
 
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Did you understand my reply? You can record anything as a mix and add multiband compression in Mastering mode. I use the DP machine exclusively.
 
mjk I think I understood your first response, but your last response is confusing.
Take that mixdown file and reimport it back into the machine.
Then you said: "I use the DP machine exclusively". How can you use the DP machine exclusively if you have to reimport a file back into the machine? As I said in my first post, I don't want to use a computer.
 
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"How can you use the DP machine exclusively if you have to reimport a file back into the machine?"
...There's a discussion on that very technique in the production techniques thread.
I assume you've read through the post mjk referred you to. And, well, yeah, you have to use the DP-xx USB port to connect to a computer to get the submix master into the Audio Depot folder.

But I take your point (it involves "using a computer").

Hope your Symetrix 150 works out well for you.
 
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Thanks Mark for the response. Your contributions on this forum are invaluable and I admire a great deal what you do to help others.

I have actually looked in that thread for info on this technique and not found it. From what I've read, the technique has been kind of implied, but never outlined in detail. Lots of info on using the dynamics or guitar compressor for a single track of course... but using the mastering one on a single track to reintegrate back into a song as painlessly as possible? I couldn't find it - at least not in detail the way for instance you've outlined other production tips.

Yes my strong preference would be to keep the computer at bay. I really shouldn't have to justify my preference, but the computer is in an entirely different room. More importantly, the computer is distracting and I can see the use of compression being not so much of a rarity. Therefore, the computer in my presence then would not become rare either. I don't want it. I think many DP users chose the standalone hardware for this very reason.
 
@isoneedacoffee ahhh, I completely understand, and yes, although the computer is not used for audio processing, the mixdown technique does require one to copy a file on the SD card. I use the DP machine exclusively for recording.

But, I would like to point out that unless you do a stereo mixdown to an outboard recorder, you have to use a computer at some point to get your mixdown file off the machine so you can use it. But you certainly do not have to justify your desire to not use a computer! So instead of introducing a computer to your music workstation, perhaps you could simply take the SD card into the other room and do a quick file copy and then return to the studio.

Directly stated, go into Mixdown mode, and do a "mix" of the track(s) you want to apply the multiband to. Set the In and Out points to the very start and end of the song. Once the mix is recorded, go into Mastering mode and apply your compression, and record it. The only thing left to do at that point is copy the mixdown file to the Audio Depot and import it.

If your card is a micro SD type, a tablet would work for the file copy operation.

I completely agree with your sentiment about multiband compression and I wish it was available for tracking. But I tend to do complicated submixes with effects so, passing tracks through the Mixdown/Mastering process is SOP for me.
 
...From what I've read, the technique has been kind of implied, but never outlined in detail...but using the mastering one on a single track to reintegrate back into a song as painlessly as possible? I couldn't find it - at least not in detail the way for instance you've outlined other production tips.
This is the post (#2) about his submix process that mj was referring you to in the Production Tips thread.
http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/share-dp-24-32-sd-production-tips.5747/#post-28937

mj's post is in response to David Porter's post (#1 just above mj's) that enumerates the process. The meat is in the section of his post labeled "Example:".

mj's process works for one or more tracks.

If you're using compression a lot on different tracks, not having the computer close at hand could be a real PITA if you needed to keep running back and forth.
 
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... simply send your kick drum track to the send bus and patch it back to an input and add compression while you re-record that track back onto a fresh unused track. This is almost certainly the best way to skin that cat.
I have to say, David's solution is an elegant one if you have spare tracks, and has the advantage of making both tracks (original and compressed) available for blending or for creating special effects during mixdown to your stereo master.

The only thing missing is the ability to compress only certain frequency ranges (multiband compression). But each input has not only Dynamic/Compression available, but also has full parametric EQ available that can be tweaked, as well as having the Effects:Reverb/Chorus/Delay available. Something to consider. In lieu of compression, tweaking a targeted frequency by only 1 or 2 dB can at times make all the difference that's needed.

It has the added advantage of freeing up your outboard compressor for use on a different track during mixdown by using the other Send.

Whether you use the outboard compressor or David's suggestion, you still have to bring the signal back into the your DP-24 through one of the Inputs to get it into the mixdown to a stereo master (by using Assign/Input/Stereo Bus if you don't first record it to a spare track).
 
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Thank you so much Mark and MJK. That indeed clarifies things a great deal. On my end, the deal for the Symetrix compressor did not work out. I went to get it today, but the output gain was not functional, so I had to pass. Unfortunately, my understanding was that much of the secret tone sauce of the Symetrix 150 came from pushing that output gain.

Along these lines, I was wondering what tonal characteristics you find in the onboard compressors of the DP24. Often compressors are defined as smooth vs aggressive or punchy... slow vs fast, warm, etc. How would you characterize the various comps of the DP24? Are they all (dynamics, guitar, mastering) even the same in terms of their tonal blueprint? Do you find they work best on certain tracks? It's hard me to imagine the same compressor doing equally well on say Diana Krall style vocals vs a speed metal drum track.
 
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I can't speak at length about compressor comparisons as I just don't have the experience.

What I will say is that the on-board dynamic compressor that is applied to the inputs of the DP series is not.... uh.... transparent. What I mean by that is that with even extremely subtle compression settings (high threshold/low ratio) - you can easily tell when it's on and when it's off. Simply running a signal through it and toggling the compressor on and off will demonstrate this. Having said that - I do not see this as a negative. It just is what it is. I do and have used it a lot and find it very useful for evening vocals, taming electric bass transients, acoustic guitar, etc.

I recently bought a WA2A outboard compressor (having absolutely no experience with such an animal until now) and am amazed at how transparent this type of compressor is. It's even more than that though - with very conservative settings... it adds a "sheen" to the signal (without coloring it too much) that is very pleasing. With more aggressive settings - just wow. Can make a mediocre vocal track suddenly come alive and sit right in a mix with little/less EQ'ing. I'm in the early stages of learning where it can help me the most - but so far - very impressed with the WA2A.

Having said that - and seeing that you mentioned the ART VLA above... the ART VLA is also an optical-compressor/leveling-amplifier similar in nature to the WA2A that I have. Except that it has *two channels* (great for running stereo tracks or full mixes through), more adjustable settings/parameters, and can be bought new for only $319.00. I have talked directly with several experienced owners of the ART VLA and have only heard positive comments. Seems like a great value.
 
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Often compressors are defined as smooth vs aggressive or punchy... slow vs fast, warm, etc.
Don't fall into that trap. It's nonsense double-speak. It's like saying a hammer is loud or soft.

A compressor is a tool. It does one thing...It reduces dynamic range: to create headroom; or to squeeze the fundamentals and overtones together to smooth out an erratic signal or emphasize an instrument/voice (give it punch). It can be used also to create special effects, but that isn't the primary purpose of a compressor in the recording/mixing/mastering process.

A good compressor should be neutral if all the adjustable parameters are turned off/down. It's the informed application of the user controlled parameters that make a compressor effective.

Like any tool, it's only as good as the person making use of it. The better compressors have several adjustment controls, multi-band controls, etc and not a one-size-fits-all single control. And like any good tool, mastering its use takes education and practice, practice practice.

In the process of applying compression, the relative balance of the frequency response can change, as well as the overall level of the signal being compressed.

Rely on your ears, the track or master mix meters, and the compressor meters.
  1. You should not hear the compressor working when it's engaged (it actually sounds like breathing if it's set incorrectly.
  2. If there are before/after differences in the FR, use EQ to put the FR back where you want it.
  3. If there's an undesirable change in the output level, use the compressor's gain adjustment to compensate.
  4. Don't let use of a compressor substitute for proper mic selection/placement, EQ, gain staging, etc. It should be the last, not the first, go-to in the tracking and mixing processes. In the sub-mastering or mastering process multi-band compression can improve the sub-master or master if applied correctly to an already good mix.
Remember though, all this is just M2cW. Use of compression is as much an artistic decision as it is a technical decision.
 
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Hey Mark- hope all is well.

Do you agree with my comments about the input dynamic compressor on the DP? It's not so much that it "colors" the signal necessarily... it's just that you can tell whether that sucker is on or off. Agree, disagree?
 
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Absolutely agree with you about the DP Dynamic compressor, David. It's effective even with very subtle settings, as it should be. (I hope you didn't think I was knocking what you said. The descriptions you gave about your WA2A are exactly what a good compressor should do.)

You, as the engineer, should always be able to tell when and what the compressor is doing as you're making decisions about how to make the track/mix/master sound as good as it can be.

The end listener should not be aware that compression has been applied (unless you're going for some kind of special effect).;)
 
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Thanks for all the info Mark. I feel more confident about eqing decisions based on what you've outlined so far.
By the sounds of it, David you're not too fond of the inherent sound of the DP24 compressors and looked elsewhere. I also noticed on other threads that you went with an outboard preamp as well.
I know I'll need compression, and I'm attracted to outboard gear because I think I'm just wary of coming out with a mix that sounds weak and sterile on the DP24. Maybe just staying within the DP24 will be all I need... but I'll need to be convinced. I play hard rock ... in a '70s vein. I would likely always err on the side of warmth/grit than cleanliness and clarity. For reference, I play in a trio that sounds like a mix between The Stooges and Black Sabbath.
I think that if I were to buy outboard gear, with the idea of achieving that sound, the compressor should be what I go for first, right?. A preamp seems interesting. But I would get more bang for my buck with a compressor, no?
 
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For clarity's sake: There is nothing that I find undesirable about the on-board dynamics compressor effect in the DP. It's simply a different type of compressor as compared to my new outboard piece. Each one of these are compressors - but they are very different animals, have different adjustable parameters, and affect the signal differently, respectively. I'm still learning as I go.... about how to best use and apply these different types of compression.

I recommend playing around with the dynamic compressor to see what use, value, characteristics, etc... it has - for you. It's a very capable effect.

Having said that....

Indeed, I bought a Warm Audio preamp (TB12) and a Warm Audio Wa2a compressor for the very purpose of wanting to add "old school" warmth to my recordings. Like you, I'm wary of the digital realm sounding sterile and overly crisp. The Warm Audio (that name is kinda corny and cliche - but whatever - it's good gear) components have been helpful with that aim in mind. If I had to have just one of those two - and with the aim of adding some warmth to recorded tracks or full mixes - I would probably go with the optical compressor. I just got mine - and I'm a very busy person - so I'll be learning and experimenting with it over time - but the results so far are pretty sweet.

Again, that ART VLA II optical compressor/limiter seems like a great value that may get you what you're looking for.

Hope this helps.
 
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David, this is getting off topic, but your comment about "old school warmth", got me thinking, so I made a little test.

My studio was all analog, but we made CDs from our first generation stereo master tapes to archive them, and I still have most of those CDs.

Even though digitized, an analog track from one of my studio CDs does sound different when played immediately after one of my current, all digital, stereo masters.

Individually, they both sound excellent, but to my ear the old school digitized analog recording has a more pleasing sound when the two are played back to back.

That has me thinking now about how I might incorporate my 40-4 tape deck or a small analog mixer that I have into the Mixdown process, essentially using it as a stereo Send 1 /Send 2 effect to blend the analog processed stereo signal with the digital Stereo signal, perhaps as a bounce track.

Sorry for the hijack, isoneedacoffee. David, We can go off line or start a separate thread if you want to discuss.
 
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