Model 12 for Ableton Live 10

[NikGilbert]

Right,

Drastically out of my depth by the looks of the level of the answers and responses here guys but need some no doubt incredibly basic advice from those in the know and I can't seem to find it anywhere.

So...

I bought the Model 12 ostensibly as a DAW controller, in lieu of an Audio Interface, with the ability to manually twiddle the knobs rather than click around on the mouse when adjusting levels etc. Also, I've always hated unplugging and plugging in all the various instruments into my two mic input Audio Interface. I've always used Ableton so there's that, and I have an iMac that runs Big Sur. I've downloaded the Model Mixer software and connected the Model 12 to the iMac using a usb-c. On Ableton, I've set the audio inputs and outputs to the Model 12 and the same with the Midi ones. I've set the Mode switches to PC and toggled to the DAW Controller setting on the Model 12 itself.... And that's about as far as it goes. I'm then a bit stuck. There is a level of control that I'm getting on Ableton. The Faders and Pam knobs work, as does the recording arming - but I'm hearing nothing. When I plug a mic in, I'm getting no signal on the unit nor on my DAW. I've twiddled the headphone knobs but can't hear any playback or any monitoring. When I plug a keyboard in via the midi ports, like I have always done on my Audio Interface, I get nothing. Or nothing that I can see anyway.. When I hit play on a recorded track, nothing lights up on the Model 12.. nothing comes out of anywhere actually.. Basically I am a bit stuck. And there's no sort of troubleshooting thing anywhere. Just a 5m 40 sec set up video, all of which I have followed. There seems to be something around the MTR/USB SEND POINT setting that seems important in the manual, but it doesn't really explain what any of it means or what I actually need to do. Or if it does, don't understand it! What setting do I need to basically use the Model 12 like a big Audio Interface with mixing capabilities.. That's it. I don't need to record onto it or do anything complicated.. just normal stuff into my DAW. So can someone help me please? I'm sure it's all very straightforward but clearly NOT TO ME! I'd be most grateful..

Nik

 

[-mjk-]

Did you change the mode switch on the mic channel?

 

[NikGilbert]

Hi. Yes. All the Mode switches are on PC..

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

I recommend staying out of the special DAW control mode for your early explorations.

While You won’t be able to use the M12 to adjust Live’s faders, there is a ton of other good stuff you CAN do without entering that mode.

Mainly you just have to figure out how to get Ableton to “talk” to M12- eg that is to assign and use the 12 inbound individual channels coming from Model 12 and booking them up to an input track in Ableton. And then seed from Ableton back out up to I think channels back to the M12.

Each DAW is a bit different in terms of the specific menu actions you need of how to set up but once you crack that, it WILL work fantastically well for your purposes. I don’t know Ableton, so perhaps those users her can jump in with advise on how to navigate the menus of Ableton...

 

[Blue Monster 65]

On the Model 16 (and 24), the switch needs to be set to live to get any signal from something plugged into the board. It will send that signal out via USB to the DAW at the same time: doesn’t the Model 12 work like that, too?

 

[-mjk-]

On the Model 16 (and 24), the switch needs to be set to live to get any signal from something plugged into the board. It will send that signal out via USB to the DAW at the same time: doesn’t the Model 12 work like that, too?

This is why I was asking. Thanks for posting that.

 

[Freebird]

Well... I don't have Model 12 myself(I use Model 24)... but according to the manual for M12 it says:
--------------------------------
"When in DAW control mode, only audio input through Model 12 channels 1-2 can be heard. By setting Model 12 channels 1-2 as the outputs for the DAW master audio, the sound can be monitored with the Model 12 while operating the DAW. Make the following settings as necessary.

1.To control the DAW while listening to the DAW master audio through this unit, set the MODE switch for channels 1-2 on the Model 12 to “PC” and set the DAW master audio output to these channels.

2. On the MTR/USB SEND POINT screen, set to any setting other than “PRE COMP” (default value). To send channel 1-2 LIVE input from this unit to the computer, set the MODE switch to “LIVE” (this disables monitoring of sound from the DAW)"
---------------------------------
To me this seems to mean that you can ONLY listen to the "Stereo Master" from the DAW. And you can ONLY use channel 1-2 for this purpose, and NO other channels.

As far as I understand Model 12 you can't use "daw-controller mode", and at the same time record on or through Model 12. But I might be totally wrong there.

Regarding the "Send Point" thing you mentioned it seems like you have to have set either "Post Comp" or "Post EQ" to be able to receive sound from the computer. In both cases the mode switch should be set to PC.

And as Blue Monster 65 says...If you plug in a microphone the mode switch should be set to LIVE on that channel. But then the manual says: "this disables monitoring of sound from the DAW" (see quote above). So... if you can be in daw-controller mode and at the same time record with a microphone or play and listen to a keyboard/syntheziser is beyond my knowledge of Model 12.

To be honest... I have never really understood "the point" in having this rudimentary daw-controller option in Model 12 since it's as rudimentary as my 35 dollar/euro ZubZero midi-controller that does the same thing as Model 12. A daw-controller without motorized faders and automatic adjustments to the DAW settings every time you start it up, seems quite meaningless to me. That's why I'm planning on buying a Presonus Faderport 16 further on up the road.

From the manual:
"Immediately after connecting with the DAW as well as after settings have been made in the DAW, the DAW settings and the state and positions of the Model 12 buttons, knobs and faders will not match. In this case, adjust the DAW settings to match the Model 12 settings, or use the Model 12 buttons, knobs and faders to match the DAW settings".

To me that is definitely a "No Go" since NOTHING adds up from one session to another. And even not within a session itself since any changes done directly in the DAW by mouse/keyboard won't be adjusted on the M12!

 

[-mjk-]

@Freebird I hear you. But you monitor through channel 1 and 2. So however you move the faders/DAW envelopes will be heard on the 2 channels. If they don't match it doesn't matter unless you want to update an automaton envelope. The DAW will just play back what's recorded. If you don't move the faders on the playback the DAW level stays the same. That's probably the same as the controller you have.

I agree with you. My system has moving fader automation.

 

[Freebird]

@-mjk- Yup... that's about how the ZubZero works to. But what "bugs" me is that it never lines up with the settings in Studio One from one session to another. Hence the Faderport 16 upcoming investment!

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

It’s not the case that you can only listen to stereo master tracks out from a DAW.

I believe this is only the case while the Model 12 is in DAW Controller mode.

But otherwise one can absolutely have multiple sends coming out from any DAW tracks assigned to any available physical track on the M12/16/24 via the USB (as long as the tracks channel switch is set to PC mode).

I do this a lot with both Model 12 and Model 16 to do mixdowns moving the EQ faders by hand as the song plays on the DAW and is captured by the MPC on the Model.

In fact I really like this mode of operation. It’s not just a gimmick, but rather it’s a work flow that brings some real differences to the final mix. Especially with Model 16/24’s analog summing. But also Model 12’s giving you ability dialing in compressors across the tracks quickly to “feel” how one effects the other and EQ .., physical knobs make a big big difference in how creative and fast you can do stuff

..(Sadly one of the great misses of the Model 16/24 is that the in/out is at one fixed point downstream from the analog compressor...making this switchable is one thing future

that said the digital compressors on the Model12 are superb...I slightly prefer them Model16’s compressors which can only be used while tracking/recording from the board).

I am a bit less impressed with Model 12’s DAW control mode. It just isn’t all that useful, since you still need the mouse and PC for so many things, it just ends up requiring one to constantly shift back and forth between the devices.

 

[NikGilbert]

Hi there guys, thanks for your help. This is really useful. So would you suggest therefore, in practical terms, that I should continue recording through an audio interface, which allows me to monitor what I am inputting at the same time, and then use the Model 12 in DAW mode to tweak the EQ levels once the actual track is down. I must say, that would be a tad disappointing, as the reviews and videos online made it look like I could use it like a 12 input audio interface which had the ability to adjust the levels of each input individually in a manual sense DURING the recording process which would be mirrored on my DAW....

 

[NikGilbert]

To further elaborate, perhaps I took something from the reviews and online videos that the machine simply isn't designed to do, but I had hoped you could use it in a band setting. So say, you have three microphones in channel 1, 2 and 3 and you would be able to arm them on track 1, 2 and 3 on your DAW and press record and Bob's your uncle. Then you could adjust in a more tactile way that on the DAW itself, the levels of each mic, being able to listen back to what you have recorded as a master and muting the channels you wanted to whilst mixing your recorded output.
As I say, maybe it's not designed for that! But that's certainly how it seemed marketed to a simpleton such as I...

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

Gosh, not sure why you would do that. Honestly, Keep your Model 12 and take the time to learn all the uses.

You have SO MANY options. Consider just tracking, you can...

1- capture track outs by recording in DAW (eg the unit will behaving like any 10 out audio interface but with the added advantage of very good and flexible pre amps, and ability to add compression and EQ to the send if you wish). This mode is good if you are used to recording through an AI to DAW and/or are creating loops or bits of songs that you will sequence in the DAW.

OR 2 just capture on M12 SD in a song file which has all the tracks stored as well as stereo master file. This is how a lot of us work (see Gteleofon’s videos) for example.

The pros of the 2nd mode is that you do not need to be connected to a PC or DAW until later. so no waiting for boot up etc. Just turn on the Model 12 and be create a song in seconds. Or go portable like I do, tracking at a rehearsal space and only later importing to DAW. This mode is also good if you playing through entire songs because the Models have good punch in features to fix a little clam in an otherwise good take. Here in this mode you transferring tracks after you are finished from the SD either via file import (which in turn has several ways to accomplish) or Playback.

OR...BOTH at the same time! while M12 is connected to PC and DAW via USB you can actually make 2 simultaneous copies of the tracks. One on the M12’s SD card and one in your DAW if you set up a project with empty tracks linked to the channel outs and hit Record in DAW while also Recording the track on the M12. It takes more set up time up front to do this but gives you back up and files in both places from the git go.

In short, the Models are incredibly flexible— it just takes some time investment to try all the possibilities. But once you get into it (and past the initial issue of your DAW’s side of the setup) it’s really great. I would never want just a plain AI at this point...

 

[NikGilbert]

Hi jschm0-bass - thanks so much for taking the time to reply.

Well that is great news - and exactly what I bought the thing for! it's just a matter of getting it to sync up properly with my DAW. As I say, I've got it to the stage where it controls the faders and knobs and can use it to record from a certain output, but I am not being able to hear through the headphones what has been recorded or monitor what is currently being recorded. So if I say, want to add vocals to a pre-recorded piano part, I am being able to record them through a microphone onto a corresponding track on my DAW with the Mode switch turned to PC on the output channel being used, but I am unable to hear the piano track through the headphones simultaneously. In fact I'm unable to hear anything through the headphones... This is the major problem and I'm not sure which part of the setup I have done wrong for this to be the case...

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

So right now if you move a fader on the M12 it triggers a movement in your DAW?

if so then you are in DAW control mode. exit out of that mode! it pretty limiting compared to what you can do with just the usb cable hooked up but NOT in that mode

Spend some time linking the DAW inputs to Model 12 outputs and vice versa NOT in Control mode. That’s where most of the functionality lies.

 

[Freebird]

As I said in my comment above... the manual says: "When in DAW control mode, only audio input through Model 12 channels 1-2 can be heard". Which to me means that any other audio than the "Stereo Master" from the DAW (channel 1-2 on Model 12) can NOT be heard or listen to.

I would agree with what JSchmo_Bass says... skip the "DAW Controller-mode" when recording tracks and only turn it on after you have recorded/imported them into the DAW. To me the Model 12 doesn't seem to be intended to be used in "DAW-mode" while recording. It seems to be more focused on letting you do the mixing on Model 12 and letting the controls inside the DAW follow along as the mix progresses, and at the same time let you listen to the Stereo Master tracks through Model 12.

 

[NikGilbert]

Hi Guys, thanks a whole bunch for all this "input". I will give that a go and try from there. Though you might forgive a guy for thinking the best way to use the machine to control your DAW would be in DAW Controller mode..

 

[Freebird]

Nah... you're welcome NikGilbert! ALL of this Model 12-16-24 have their own positives and drawbacks. And that's why we all are here for... to help each other out when problems occur!

 

[Logrinn]

Or put in another way...

The Model 12 is a
1. Mixer
2. Digital multirecorder
3. Audio interface
4. DAW controller

but you can’t have it do all these things at the same time ...

 

[Freebird]

@Logrinn TRUE... one unit can only do a certain amount of things at the same time. REMEMBER... even Einstein said there is "relativity" EVERYWHERE in our universe!

E=mc2................................................