Why did they not give the FX section a sub buss assignment button?

[Doepness]

Or am I missing something?

How does everyone else print their stereo FX to one of the stereo channels?

The only way I can make sense, is to assign all channels to the Sub, and then FX to main out? which is completely non sensical and annoying.

I can't find any way to return stereo FX to a stereo channell... Is this not possible? If so, total bummer.

 

[dctdct]

I don't own (yet) a MODEL series mixer, but always interested in such details to refine my decision. I have a DP-24 which has some similarity but is not exactly the same concept.
Anyhow, looking at the block diagram of the MODEL series I see that whatever you assigned to the FX bus, can be routed to the internal FX.
The return FX is stereo and will be fed twice into MON 1+2 and MAIN L+R. There you have your FX returns. But the Tascam manual is - as usual - very vague regarding the further steps to use the busses for a bounce (which it is) into a normal stereo channel.
Curious who will come up with a proper solution.

 

[Doepness]

@dctdct I just got mine (used) from a retail a few days ago. Don't get me wrong, it's a dope little unit and I've already done some cool work with it... but, there are some annoying little shortcomings where you are saying to yourself "why, why, w hy, if only they did that little simple thing it would be one of the coolest mixers on the market without question".

I'm pretty sure, the Mon1/2 are both mono sums, ie, it doesn't come out stereo left right... One thing I haven't tried is TRS to dual TS to see if the signal is like a headphone cable that could be split left right.

The solution I thought up in my head of putting all the tracks to the Sub bus and the FX to Main didn't seem to work. Main out always still had everything else in it.

I think unfortunately, the only way will be to rely on external FX.

 

[-mjk-]

I trust you won't mind that I edited the title of the topic to reflect a more professional image.

 

[dctdct]

@dctdct
I'm pretty sure, the Mon1/2 are both mono sums, ie, it doesn't come out stereo left right... One thing I haven't tried is TRS to dual TS to see if the signal is like a headphone cable that could be split left right

As most FX solutions they have typically mono in and stereo out.
The block diagram tells me this too, if I’m reading right.

 

[Doepness]

@dctdct That would be the block diagram for how the FX work internally yes, mono ->=Stereo - the question is, where can that Stereo signal breakout out and how to get it back onto two channels or a stereo channel.

Unless I need to use an insert cable/TRS to 2x TS from one of the monitor outputs... the two monitor outputs panned left right still yields a mono effect result (ie, using ping pong).

The only place the FX end up where stereo is retained, is to the main bus.... which isn't very useful for obvious reasons.

 

[dctdct]

As you can test it on the device: Sadly, in my eyes this a design fault (not feature!). Why shouldn't you have a routing to one of the other busses too!?
This is exactly what the DP series does with the intenal FX returns: You can bounce it back to one (or two) tracks. Didn't expect this missing link on the Model series.

 

[Doepness]

@Mark Richards I have the Model 24, latest fw.

Unless I'm doing something stupid or completely amateurish, or unless there is a bug the Left/Monitor Out 1 | Right/Monitor Out 2 does not work using ping pong as a test. And yes, I've both panned left/right on two channels, as well as tried on a stereo channels line inputs...

I guess I will do a 3rd and even more thorough test...

*edit*

Looking at that part of the diagram, it's not very well done in that it doesn't explicitly state and could lead one to believe that it is stereo... but it could just as easily also not be. It certainly doesn't show a L/R to mono sum component.

 

[Doepness]

@dctdct @Mark Richards

Official response = no stereo breakout other than being mixed in with the mains.

"The internal effects processor does not have a discreet output on the Model 24. The Monitor 1 and 2 outputs are mono independent aux outputs, so they do not combine to make a left and right output. There is a physical FX 1/4 inch output, which defeats the internal effect processor if you plug something into it, but that is also a mono aux send.

The internal effect processor gets sent to the Main mix, which feeds the control room, headphone and Main outputs. The internal effect can also be recorded to the Stereo mix recording and should have stereo imagining when in use. "

Perhaps I could hack a way to record nothing but FX to the main bus... but still annoying and not ideal and would likely result in accidental data loss, ie, overwriting the FX by accident as the mainbus is always recording.

 

[Doepness]

@dctdct @Mark Richards
I did work out a bit of a "hack" using the main bus, but, it will overwrite any previous mainbus recordings of coarse... so, there needs to be a specific order of workflow...

1.record song
2.mix song as you normally would
3.utilize FX send and 'FX to Main' knob without worry
4.Once you're happy with your mix starting point....
5.Take all channels/Sub mainbuss assignment out/off so that only the FX is being sent to MainBus
6.Use XLR->TRS cables out the main outs into a stereo channel and record that stereo channel.
7.Once recording is done, unpatch TRS side (prevent feedback loop), re-assign all the channels/sub to Mainbus
8.Add your new stereo FX channel to mainbus
9.Do your final mix, record the main bus (Main bus is always recording every time master record is hit)

and voila, you have your FX on a stereo channel you can now mix with properly.

Mind you, this wouldn't work in a live situation. In that case, you're stuck with the FX just going straight to mainbus.

It's also possible maybe, to follow the same steps up to and 5, record only the main bus (no tracks armed), and then do a Stereo Mix Export, and re-import that stereo export to an available stereo track... Haven't tried this method yet though.

The nice thing about doing my first method, is, you can use the Graphic EQ on the main outs to shape the EQ curve of the FX, and then use AFL/PFL and the AFL/PFL master knob to monitor that stereo channel recording the FX.

The great thing about these little swiss army knife type boards is that where there's a will, there is a way, and it all just becomes part of the creative process.

 

[Mark Richards]

Last week I had posed the following scenario and questions to TASCAM Support. They in turn passed it on directly to TASCAM's engineering department.

Today I received the job-ticket reply directly from TASCAM engineering.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Scenario
The Model 24 Block Diagram indicates the internal FX return going to the Monitor 1 & 2 busses are tapped from the same internal FX return that sends a stereo image ("FX Bus Return Lch" and "FX Bus Return Rch") to the MAIN MIX L/R bus.

I plan during a session to record a vocal on MTR Track 1 and would like to record a 100% wet FX of the vocal on MTR tracks 2 & 3 for later use during mixdown.

The Questions and Replies
Verbatim engineering statement in reply: "On the condition that there are no inputs other than 1-3 channels, and 1-3 channels do not send the signal to Monitor,"

• Will this provide the "FX Bus Return Lch" signal on the Monitor 1 bus as the input source for mono Channel 2; and the "FX Bus Return Rch" signal on the Monitor 2 bus as the input source for the mono Channel 3. Verbatim Engineering Reply: "Yes."

• Will doing so result in a 100% wet FX signal on Channels 2 and 3. Verbatim Engineering Reply: "Yes."

• Can I record that 100% wet signal onto MTR Tracks 2 and 3.

Verbatim Engineering Reply: "It is possible to record by setting the inputs of 2,3 channels to 'LIVE'. "​

• On MTR playback, can I then create a 100% stereo FX image during mixdown by panning Channel 2 full left and Channel 3 full right, and then blend the wet FX with the dry vocal on track 1?

Verbatim Engineering Reply: "It is possible."​

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not stated explicitly in my scenario was the implied assumption to use patch cables to connect the Monitor 1 & 2 output jacks to Channels 2 & 3 input jacks.

The reply from engineering differs from the reply referenced above in Post #9; and from TASCAM Support's initial response to my scenario and questions, wherein TASCAM support tested my scenario and found that the Monitor 1 & 2 circuits each carried a mono FX signal (not stereo L / stereo R).

Confused? So am I.

I don't own one these FOH mixers. I can't confirm or refute; and I can't be responsible for people at TASCAM giving conflicted replies to a scenario I stated clearly; an image I annotated clearly; and to questions I posed clearly (at least they were clear to the TASCAM Support person with whom I was in contact).

Make the patch, follow the engineering advice to switch Channels 2 & 3 to "Live"; record; play back; assess. Try all the available FX: stereo reverb, stereo delay, etc., and see what happens; or don't. Up to you.

I'm done with this. Guess it's for the users to figure out how to accomplish something done easily with the portastudio models, but which likely requires use of a D.A.W., or some work-a-round, for these FOH mixers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The image below accompanied my inquiry to TASCAM (click to enlarge).

 

[Doepness]

I think potentially your questions to them were a bit too convoluted and they did not answer correctly, or answered to one part of your correspondence which did not relate to the latter.

Or I'm not sure the questions are correctly phrased.

The main bus is obviously stereo effect.

The Mon outputs are both receiving that stereo signal, but they are mono outputs. ie, they are meant for band on stage hearing the effects coming out mains. You wouldn't send one side of a pingpong delay to them.