12 vs 16 sound diffence? + DAW routing question

[Pierre Fot]

Hi,

I bought model 12 thinking that it's also analog mixer light 16 & 24 then realised by looking at diagrams on manual that it is in fact digital mixer so I'm thinking of exchanging it for model 16.

1. Is there any sound difference between the two? Any warmth or colour on 16 that 12 may lack?

2. Also DAW routing wise on 16 can you set individual tracks from Ableton to be sent to individual channels on the board mix it on board and then set inputs on new tracks within Ableton to record new mixed stems directly from 16 individual channels or at least set input in Ableton track to record full mix from 16 main mix channel?

Many thanks,
P

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

Hey Pierre,

I have the 12 and the 16.

the answer to your second question is a definite yes. I find it’s a really good way to mix. The only thing is that the return send to the DAW will have a bit of latency vs it’s origin if you try to stream “both directions” over usb.

So I do it in two steps; 1 - play back from DAW to M16 via USB recording the individual channel sends as individual tracks into a new song project, then 2 - mix (as many iterations as needed “in the mixer” and then send a final mixed stereo master file back to the DAW either by playback or file transfer. From that point I “master” to set final levels a touch of compression if needed.

It all works great and let’s you sum in analog as well as use the controls in real time.

The Model 12 can do the same exact thing of course. But it’s as you say, all digital. That means the M12 has a two key advantages, actually, namely the ability to route the returns from the PC pre or post compressor (M16 is fixed as post) and a more flexible monitor system that allows pre or post fade listen.

But, to your first question, yes there is a small differences in the overall character of the mix you can achieve.

In my opinion, is a touch more warmth, and a sense of “glue” in the low end (Bass, kick drum) of the analog sum.

However, there is also a little more noise/hiss, and a little less sparkle on the top end vs the M12, and a little more finicky as to levels.... the mix behaves differently when you have the channel gains cranked - it overdrives before it clips (this could be a good or bad thing).

search the forum below - I posted some example comparisons as WAV files on Sound Cloud.

It’s a tough choice... hence why I still have both (eventually will have to sell one... depends ultimate if my band gets back to live gigs)

Schmo

 

[Pierre Fot]

Hey Schmo,

Many thanks for the comprehensive answer. It is exactly what I needed, definitely it will be a tough choice.

I'll give M12 a shot when it arrives next week and mix few tracks. Since I have 30 days return therefore I will also buy M16 to see which one sounds better and is more suited to my needs but based on your info I'm leaning towards M16 already.

Many thanks,
Pierre

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

Yeah tough decision indeed.

The extra tracks on the 16 are handy for a 4 piece band with multiple vocalists.

The 12 has on-board instant track swap, the 16 does not. (There are workarounds but they require either several steps or a connection to a PC).

And the 12 is super easy to carry (in its optional Tascam case) the 16 is a a little more of a handful.

 

[Pierre Fot]

Hey Schmo,

Can you clarify something for me? I've tested both units and indeed 16 sounds bit nicer however routing wise lets say I want to route

DAW - Board - DAW
ch1 daw out - to ch1 board - back to new ch1 audio track daw
and so on for ch 2, 3, 4 etc to record individual stems processed on the board.

Is that possible as so far I am able to record only processed master stereo output and individual channels are not picked up by ableton's ins after coming back from board?

Also on 16 signal from daw to board and back to processed stereo master bypass the compressor? It looks to me that compressor can be only used for gear plugged into analog ins and it doesn't work for interface daw routing? Is that correct or is there workaround for it? on 12 compressor is picked up within the signal chain...

Hope it make sense?

Thanks,
P

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

To your second question , Yes.

the fixed the placement of the analog compressor in the M16 and M24 prior to the send switch (PC or MTR) means it’s ONLY possible to use the compressors in the initial recording of a live input. Think of it as part of your pre amp, along with HPF. This is VERY frustrating, and something we’d all like to see updated in future.

The Model 12 has (very nice) digital compressors and it’s selectable as to whether it’s before or after the send switch.

Now, as to your first question, help me understand ... are you trying to go DAW-M16-DAW all in one real time play through?

meaning you are pressing ”play”’in your DAW and sending tracks 1-14 out from the DAW back to the M16, then sending the mixed master BACK to the DAW...all at once?

You probably can do it (by creating a new set of tracks in Abelton to receive and record the master outs of the M16). But I suspect you are going to get some pretty bad latency issues due to the various DAC and ADC steps plus the USB. What come back to DAW will be out of synch with what originate from your DAW...? Also you are pushing a crap ton of data through that usb cable in two directions... may hit the processing limits of your PC.

So I do everything in steps:

Step 1 - Playback a bunch of tracks from
DAW (which I’ve doctored with effects and plugins) to M16 via sends, saving the tracks onto the M16’s MTR as the DAW plays*. I use a new song file for this, separate from the original song where I captured the tracks prior to importing to DAW.

(*or you u can listen to the summed mix at this stage to play with compression and EQ before recommitting the tracks to “tape”).

Step 2. Use MTR playback and record on the M16 to capture the DAW outs. Once recorded I playback and make some final adjustments and mix tweaks, including practiced live fader moves, then when I am happy, I save and EXPORT the stereo 2 track master mix down file.

step 3 I use storage mode or SD card file transfer to bring that final stereo master 2 mixdown back into my DAW for final trimming and mastering. This is usually just a level adjust and perhaps a touch of compression to make it loud enough but not too loud. I use Mixbus as my DAW and it has some really tools for this step built in to get me to serviceable results.

Sound complex but it’s not bad, and kind of
Fun.

Does it improve the sound vs staying in the DAW... well.... I think so, it’s there and it’s good for my music style which is blues rock, but it’s subtle.

I do it as much for the tactile reality of it...

Again, it’s really too bad about those compressors since that’s the part of mixing that I find the most challenging to get. The compression on each instrument track interacts with the others in the summed mix to create rhythm and textures etc. I find it very hard to do this in a DAW...probably because I don’t have a really sound professional basis of knowledge and experience for my attempts!

but on the M12 (only) find I can twist the compressor knobs and listen until it sounds good...

 

[Pierre Fot]

Many thanks and yes I was trying to record all in real time Daw - M12 / M16 - daw latency wasn't that bad asickly got plenty of cpu and processing power.

I've checked the MTR steps you shared and it's pretty cool so will stick to that as it works well.

Totally, real shame about that compressors as it'd be great to prices some inbox sound through them... yet still can't decide which one to keep but think I'll sacrifice compressors for slightlyore interesting sound and extra channels.

Cheers

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

Yup. Indeed.

that said the M12’s sound quality is very good too - Tascam must really knows their stuff in the digital realm, as they eek out a pretty warm sound in this implementation. And the background noise levels seem a little lower.

Let us know what you discover.

Be Forewarned - I still have both units sitting on my desk 8 weeks later! Gotta decide soon.