Defective DP24SD after one day?

[-mjk-]

I have 2 questions please:

1. Does track clean out actually remove (delete) the associated zz files?
2. Single pass, non edited bounced tracks should result in single zz files, same as an imported track, yes?

I'm the submix king - I submix everything to stereo pairs for easier mixing. I always clean out the source tracks after. If the above 2 questions are true, then that should keep the files tidy, along with regular use of Delete Unused. Comments please! Thanks to everyone who contributed to this topic.

 

[Phil Tipping]

mj - I've not confirmed this so my memory may be incorrect... but I now believe the machine never deletes any zz files. I used to think the Undo levels (1 or 10) governed the no. of files it kept while deleting the older ones, but I now think it just governs how many links/pointers it keeps in the .sys file. Files which 'fall off' the undo list are still present on the card, but the machine can no longer return to those states as it's thrown away the pointers.
Track edit operations can all be undone, so the zz file(s) must still be on the card if you do a 'track clean'.
The only function as far as I know which deletes zz files is 'delete unused'... and this also deletes the undo history.
A bounce will create a single zz file. This is similar to your first recording on any track where one zz file will be created for each mono track, or 2 files for a stereo track. Note you can risk using these directly on a computer but you'll have to deduce which files are which as the names may not be obvious - that's why Export is always the recommended method for this.
If you're bouncing anyway, then you're right - it will keep things tidy as long you also do a 'delete unused' to remove the old zz file(s).
If you're only bouncing to keep things tidy, then a quicker way is as discussed earlier in this thread, i.e. run export then import for each track. The export process does the collating, so when you re-import you'll have a single zz file... but you'll still need to 'delete unused' to get rid of the original zz 'fragments'. You don't need a computer for this.
I don't have the machine handy to confirm any of this, but it's easy to do by inspecting the card with a computer (via USB for convenience) after various operations.

 

[-mjk-]

Thanks Phil, great information. It's good to know that I can still operate like an old producer, lol. I do lots of punch-ins but I never thought that would be an issue. and even the user manual refers to just recording over things if you don't need them anymore. but that doesn't overwrite the old files. this is very different than analog tape recording in that regard. But as I said, I do submix just about everything, and as long as I do periodic cleanouts that should reduce the chance of SD card issues. Thanks for your help, Phil.

 

[-mjk-]

Phil, my first thought was to change the undo level setting back to the default of 1, and apparently we're thinking along the same lines. But I ran across this little tidbit in the Undo section of the manual:
Keep in mind that I'm using the older model DP-32 however. This makes me think that once again, you've called it correctly on the number of zz files kept by the machine.

But, several questions remain: "What if you create a new song with Undo set to 1?" The manual section quoted in the screen cap refers to changing from level 10 to level 1. Does this mean that no matter what the setting, the machine always retains 10 levels of undo data and the level setting of 1 is just a "Simple Mode"? If I change back to level 1, does the machine eventually "catch up" to the new setting as subsequent operations render the previous Undo data irrelevant?
The manual refers to the Undo data being "erased" but I believe this to be a term used to describe the apparent effect on the tracks through the user interface rather than an actual operating system level event.

It's good to figure out how these things really work, because apparently some every-day standard production workflow procedures developed on analog multitrack machines could be detrimental over time.

 

[-mjk-]

since this thread is becoming more of a discussion on recording methodologies, i thought i should just continue here. it seems that i'm having almost daily epiphanies about this machine and i really must stop thinking like a 60+ year old record producer that started out on 1/2" 8 tracks in the 70s....

i've done a couple of work mixes, and changed some tracks around. thinking "i really wish i could hear the chorus section of that first mix together with the verses of the second mix" and then it dawned on me - i certainly can! i moved the first mix file into the Audio Depot, and.... you know the rest. now i'm mixing mixes. holy cow! this adds an entire new level of capability to my workflow.

since i thrive on sub-mixing things down to exactly how i want to hear them, nothing whatsoever is preventing me from getting extremely precise on these sub-mixes, and actually using mixdown mode instead of bounce mode, because mixdown mode allows easier integration of effects, and anything else available in normal mixdown mode. once finished with such a mix, one simply imports it back to the machine, and there you have it - the perfect sub-mix, including if you wish, the wonderful benefits of tri-band compression!

i'm looking forward do doing an upcoming clean guitar, chorus/delay/reverb submix in the next few days! there will be 3 tracks of guitars.

DUH!

 

[Phil Tipping]

I've just confirmed my previous post, so it definitely does not delete anything automatically. I just tried Undo level 1, and made 12 recordings by stopping and starting on the same track, and 12 zz files were on the card. So whatever your undo level is, the zz files remain. I suppose this is a good thing as it means it's impossible to overwrite recordings, although as mentioned, if you exceed the max undo limit of 10 (regardless of the setting - see below), the machine won't be able to re-use those old files so you'll have to unpick them manually in a DAW - but at least it's possible.

Re. changing undo levels during a session, I tried level=1 and made 3 recordings. Sure enough, pressing undo removed the 3rd recording and pressing undo again re-instated it. If you then change undo levels to 10, then press Undo, you can see each recording as a separate state in the history list, so you're right - the machine always keeps the last 10 states regardless of the undo level setting. Thanks for highlighting this point - I always use level-10 and used to be wary about changing back to 1 in order to answer a query for somebody, but now I know I can change it to 10 at any time without any impact.

Re. undoing single & multiple levels, there's a large section in my Step-By-Step guide about how the undo system works with both levels, and hopefully clarifies what the history list and the undo light really mean. It needs a small correction as it repeats the official manual statement that level=10 takes up more room on the card, but we now know this is not true as the no. of zz wave files retained is not affected by the undo level.

Re. re-mixing the mix, yes this is described at approx 18m30s into tutorial 10, so as long as you have a computer (and a bit of patience!) you can have the best of both worlds - the flexibility of mixdown controls and the flexibility of re-mixing & comparing bounces.

 

[-mjk-]

Very cool Phil, and thanks for the experiments and confirming everything.

I was thinking about drums today. I want to use mixdown mode, and mixdown and master only the drums with the multiband compression to get rid of all those spikes that usually cause the mix to pump. Then I want to import that mastered drum mixdown back into the song so when I do the actual full mix, the mastering compression won't have to deal with the drums. That should result in a higher overall level when normalized. Drums can wreak havoc on the mix with basically a shotgun going off on 2/4 and 4/4 of every measure.

 

[JoeMama]

Well, I am kind of a low tech guy to begin with, but I was thinking that when my DP-32 started giving 'Write Errors' that possibly I had jammed it up with too many junk 'takes'. So, after studying all of the great advice from all of you, I went in and deleted all the virtual tracks that I didn't need on that particular song and then performed the 'Delete Unused' function on the song. Guess what?? It worked! I am back in business! As someone had stated earlier (maybe Phil), it was like defragging a computer!

 

[-mjk-]

Ok, I just did a 6 track mix of clean guitars, and I used mixdown and mastering mode. I used the mastering EQ and tri band compression to get exactly what I wanted to hear in the final mix. Honestly speaking, it's probably one of the best guitar sounds I ever got in the studio. If you guys are interested in hearing it, I can make a clip and give you a link to Google Drive.

 

[-mjk-]

Phil, I changed my machine back to level 1 undo because it's a lot easier to work with. I know immediately when I've made a clam, so I don't need a list to scroll through - I just need to undo the latest thing.

 

[Phil Tipping]

Mj - working with undo=1 sounds a great idea - the 'keep it simple' principle!
JoeM - welcome! Many thanks for sharing that info as it all helps to try and understand the underlying workings of the system - we don't have access to the firmware source code so can only speculate
The delete-unused operation doesn't actually 'defrag' as such - tracks which are split over multiple zz files will be unchanged, but it does reduce the total no. of files on the card.
The export/import trick or a bounce operation both do a 'defrag', creating a single zz file for a track, so when followed by a delete-unused operation will also result in a reduction of the total no. of files.
Armed with the knowledge that both these techniques can cure glitch problems, I'm now coming to the conclusion that the underlying cause is a bottleneck with the firmware code when it navigates the File Allocation Table (FAT) in order to find any particular file... in other words, it's just the sheer number of files on the card.
Even if zz files are no longer needed for a song, the firmware still has to skip over them to find the files it needs to playback existing tracks, and as it always plays back tracks whether or not you are recording, the overheads will always be there.... and if tracks are split over multiple zz files, these overheads occur at arbitrary times throughout a song. These may just be the ramblings of an old codger in his quest for the 'truth', but any other comments or insights are welcome

 

[-mjk-]

Phil, we like your ramblings, and myself especially so, because I'm am old codger too, lol.

I did 2 guitar mono tracks, and punched in until I got them right. Recalling all these ramblings of yours, I exported the 2 tracks, and imported them into a stereo pair. Clean tracks, no breaks to manage. Cleaned out the storage tracks. Next is background vocal layers. I'll do a mixdown/mastering and import that mix file back to a stereo pair. The guitar mixdown/mastering worked so well that it has become my new SOP instead of bouncing (where applicable). Sometimes you need to bounce because you need to hear the other tracks for reference.

 

[-mjk-]

Hi JoeM. Glad you're back in business!

 

[-mjk-]

Mj - working with undo=1 sounds a great idea - the 'keep it simple' principle!

Phil, I goofed up and had to go back a couple of steps. I reset the preference back to Undo level 10, and the previous levels were not there. I had to resort to a backup file.

Let me say that with being able to export tracks, and even instantly clone tracks, we no longer have any excuses for not being able to recover most any mistake. Before I do any editing, I now export the tracks I'm working on and leave the unedited copies sitting there until I'm finished. Well worth the 1 minute insurance policy. Like any other endeavor, over-confidence can cause disaster.

 

[Phil Tipping]

That's interesting mj - I just tried repeating my test and it still works. Tried powering off & on and the multiple undo levels were still retained so not sure what happened in your case. Note that if you're now using Delete Unused regularly, this will delete the undo history - could this explain it?

 

[-mjk-]

Phil, I had been working continually for half an hour, and realized I needed to go back a few steps. Changed the level to 10 and found 2 operations listed. Note that I had cleaned out the track. That may not be reversible.

 

[Doc Wascher]

I was so excited to try the suggested fix (below) for the repetitive File Errors that developed after a song that I have been working on, well... forever, accumulated 200 individual WAV files. (BTW, I have also previously discovered, as others have noted in this forum, that the "Delete Unused" function, which I use religiously, does not actually delete any of the WAV files in a song.)

Using Method 1, below, I was able to export/transfer all 24 tracks to the Audio Depot. The file names in the Audio Depot all look appropriate, each WAV file plays properly on my computer, and the size of each of these exported WAV files appear to be appropriate for the length of each track. However, every attempt to import any of these Audio Depot tracks into the newly created song consistently results in a "Can Not Import" error (and for all 24 tracks).

I have successfully imported WAV track files into songs from my computer before, and so I am puzzled as to why the DP-32SD will not import these tracks (i.e., that I have exported into the Audio Depot) into the newly created song using Method 1, below.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, please.

Thank you,

Doc

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How to avoid/fix:
Force the ZZ files to be rebuilt so they start off as a single fragment per track.
Do this by exporting & importing each track...

Method 1: (using a new song; recommended)

• Menu, Song: Load the song
• Menu, AudioDepot: Export each track
• Menu, Song: Create a new song (this retains all other song settings)
• Menu, AudioDepot: Import each track
• Menu, Song: Erase previous song (if reqd. to save space on card)

Method 2: (using the same song; error prone)

• Menu, Song: Load the song
• Menu, AudioDepot: Export each track
• Home: Track Edit, Clean Out each track (so track can appear on Import list)
• Menu, AudioDepot: Import each track
• Menu, Song: Delete Unused (if reqd. to save space on card)

 

[Phil Tipping]

Doc, did you create the new song with the same quality settings (bit depth & sampling freq).... they must match.
btw - delete unused does what it says - it deletes unused wave files from the song. If you look at the song folder contents with a computer, you'll see the zz files decrease in number. If you've never stopped/started a recording you may not see any difference, but normally the zz 'fragments' will increase over time due to re-takes etc. Some will be reqd to make up each track, others may become redundant. Those are what 'delete unused' addresses. The export/import trick forces the machine to create a single zz file for each imported track, so if you import to the same song, all the old zz fragments are redundant and will disappear when you 'delete unused'.

 

[Doc Wascher]

Phil,

Your guidance was spot on! I had recorded the tracks on my previous DP-24 at a higher bit rate than the default settings on my new DP-32SD. Once I created a new song with the higher bit rate, I was then able to import the tracks into the new song.

Your comments on this thread has been of tremendous help to me, so thank you VERY MUCH for your insights and advice!


Doc

 

[Phil Tipping]

No worries doc - glad it worked.... and as it appears you've just joined the forum, I'd like to say welcome, and thank you for posting a follow-up - it's so frustrating when a question is asked and then the poster disappears so neither the responder(s) or other forum browsers know how it turned out! Good luck with your music projects and hope you enjoy the forum.