How to widen vocals space/perception?

[mixerizer]

So would it be correct to say you define “widening” as meaning the vocal’s presence in the stereo field, and “thickening” as making the vocal’s tone more consistent or supported sounding?

 

[-mjk-]

@mixerizer yes. In general, widening means away from the center.

 

[mixerizer]

And in general, thicker and wider are somewhat synonymous, thicker also implying ‘depth’ I suppose. Thanks for explaining what you mean by the terms!

 

[-mjk-]

Now we're getting into something interesting: definitions. My experience is based on the US, East Coast scene:

Mastering engineers: width pertains to the stereo imaging.
Mixing engineers: depth pertains to the front/back/soundstage imaging.

In my experience engineers of both persuasions have referred to "thicker" as a phenomenon that occurs during compression where the signal becomes less dynamic and more solid. In more recent times people call this "glue" but I typically avoid that term. I also avoid "gluey compression" the same way I avoid "ink pen" as it is redundant. I've also heard variations of the word "fat" used to describe the effect of doubling. But, the terms that the studio clients use can be humorous! I knew a guy who referred to guitar amplifier distortion as "blare." Example: "Get the blare out of that amp!" Apparently the band knew what he was talking about, lol.

 

[Slugworth]

Recoded a single vocal track, mono double and stereo double examples karaoke style over Living In The Past. I tried to duplicate Ian Anderson's doubling sound as best I could. It's hard for me to tell if he was recorded in mono-double or stereo double. Soundcloud links below.

Single track. Single track vocal panned in the middle L/R. Studio reverb added. https://soundcloud.com/jebronelames...d&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

Mono double. Main vocal track on Left and double vocal track on Right. L track panned to 10 o'clock position. R track panned to 2 o' clock position. No reverb or other added effects https://soundcloud.com/jebronelames...d&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

Stereo double. Example of stereo double vocals. Main vocal track on Left and double vocal track on Right. L track panned to 7 o'clock (full wide left) position. R track panned to 5 o' clock position (full wide right) No reverb or other added effects.
Third (stereo)double track recorded and panned to center position L/R https://soundcloud.com/jebronelames...d&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

 

[Slugworth]

The O.G. of ADT.

Recreate ADT

 

[Slugworth]

Any way, other than my voice itself, to improve those tracking techniques?

I'm going to remove them from SoundCloud tonight.

 

[Arjan P]

Not sure what you want to hear.. Apparently you're not happy with the three different clips but there's no further remarks about what you think of them. Except something should improve. Each could be a choice to use, but it's your choice. (Though the one you called 'mono' is not really mono, because both tracks are panned apart. With real doubled mono both would be dead center.)

 

[Slugworth]

"Though the one you called 'mono' is not really mono, because both tracks are panned apart. With real doubled mono both would be dead center"

I tried it that way at first and it sounded really robotic so I panned out from there. As I mentioned prior I tried to match as close as I could to Ian's double vocal separation. I think it was likely recorded as mono double with the left around 1o o'clock and right at 2 o'clock.

I'm content with the recording technique in the clips. Thanks to the input here and from the information in the YT vids I feel I can add doubling when needed or desired for future recordings. However, I can see the need to be precise as possible when doubling the first vocal track as mine were somewhat loose and noticeable. The only item I was unhappy about is my own voice.

 

[mixerizer]

For the old-school vocal performance doubling stuff, it’s a weird combo of knowing just what u wanna do ahead of time, nailing it in the studio, being sure whether u like the take, then learning/internalizing/mimicking what you actually did and repeating it well on the overdub.

Someone like Paul MacCartney seems to have had a very clear idea what he wanted to do, and then did it efficiently and did the above process for his take and overdub immediately - while the inspiration, energy, and studio conditions were unchanged.

with more sophisticated techniques and digital, u have a lot of options - for example, u can take the vocal phrase by phrase, doing the take and double immediately, instead of waiting - but I find that’s harder because u don’t have the time to like/learn/mimic the take for the double, it’s more like archery on skis.

 

[Slugworth]

Does this song's (River To Consider) vocal tracks intentionally employ a slight delay of vocal times between tracks? I seem to hear a warbling effect between the two and/or three vocal tracks.
Also, It sounds like both double stereo fades into double mono at times. These guys generally record on older analog equipment, but a few of their songs include auto-tune.

River To Consider intro is fairly long and vocals start at the 1:18 time mark.

Hot Thought (auto-tune) https://soundcloud.com/whitedenim/h...d&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

Come Back (raw sound)

 

[mixerizer]

The warbling I hear in video 1 are slight differences in the phrases for the overdubs. It is a single melody line w 3 or 4 tracks (1 think it is the lead and possible double, as well as a 2nd take and double). It remains this way, chant-like. At 3:13 “what will it take” it sounds like we hear the lead break this pattern and stretch out, without a double, as the background is in counterpoint repeating the chorus in the background. There is no harmony on the vocal, to my ear it’s one or two ‘backgrounded’ takes of the same melody and phrases in the background, faded down, and a doubled lead w a few empty spots like 3:13.

 

[Slugworth]

Mixerizer. Thanks for the analogy of that song's vocal parts.

Not sure if you or anyone else can answer the following question. Once I get my home recordings to a point where all tracks are tight timing wise and vocals are at minimum satisfactory. Would there be any benefit having them mastered at a local professional recording studio compared to mastering at home?

 

[mixerizer]

All my opinion: I think mastering can do a tremendous amount. It can’t fix garbage recordings, mixes nor performances - but it can rescue them if they aren’t beyond saving. And if the mixes are excellently recorded, mixed and ‘pre-mastered’ as appropriate, excellent mastering can take it over the top, and bad mastering can ruin it.

Mastering is a real skill and if an artist can learn to record and mix their own stuff, they can certainly learn to master it also. As w any other aspect, imho, collaborating with an expert cannot help but improve it, especially if you are a good collaborator and bring excellent material for them to work on.

 

[Slugworth]

The basic Tascam DP-008ex I use has a couple choices for Auto-mastering. I haven't tried manual mastering yet. The Yamaha DD-65 has a stereo out/headphones and use a stereo to mono (L)/mono (R) splitter cord into the recorder. When I mixdown prior to mastering I usually pan the left and right tracks as wide as possible. Unfortunately, I have no control over which drum pad goes to either L or R channel. The kick drum seems to always be in the middle of the projection not matter how it's panned, so it often sounds separated in weird way.

Bass I use a single track in the center or just off of center sometimes. For guitar I usually double track with one clean track and the other with overdrive. Those I will usually pan L at 9 o'clock and R at 3 o'clock. Lead guitar usually one track and generally panned pretty wide.
As with vocals I feel that no matter how wide I pan when played over stereo speakers my songs sound narrow in projection. Headphones help some, but still not like listening to professionally recorded music. Increasing width and depth is what I'd hope to get out of professional mastering. if that's possible using using my individual tracks?

 

[-mjk-]

The stereo width can be adjusted by band, in the Mastering process (I mean by a Mastering engineer, not an automated process).

What most people do in your situation is, record the cleanest tracks as possible and have a pro mix and master them (could be the same person doing both, but most times 2 different people).

 

[Slugworth]

mjk. Thanks for the reply. I emailed a local recording studio yesterday and they replied today quoting $150 per song mastering. Is that a reasonable price?

 

[-mjk-]

It's a bit high perhaps. it depends how much personal attention they give you. I believe that Abbey Road will master a song for 75 GB pounds. you can check their website.

That being said, there are some guys right here on the forum that will probably do it for nothing just to let you experience what it can do.

 

[Slugworth]

I did a bit of research and the quote seems a bit high. Here in the Piedmont Triad area of NC we aren't known to be a music Mecca. However , that particular recording studio does have Eric Gayle's (blues dude) as one of their frequent artists. Maybe that's why they are a bit pricey?

 

[-mjk-]

It doesn’t matter if they have these so-called Grammy award-winning engineers. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. I know that area of the US fairly well, and I wouldn’t say it’s known for mastering. You can check out Vlado Muller and also Abbey Road (website). Vlado mastered a couple of singles for me in the 90s and he’s awesome.