Replacement for two Roland VS2480s (DM-4800?)

[Jkurtz]

Hello Tascam folks. Feels a bit weird for me. I've spent the last 12 years in the Roland VSplanet forum.

I currently own three VS2480s (one as a backup). They have been incredible machines for me. 32 channels of simultaneous recording and 48 channels of playback. motorized faders, fader automation, scene recall etc.. Having said all that, the VS is very limited in what it can do with DAW software. So now I am looking for a replacement to use with my DAW of choice, which is Studio One Professional. I have spent months combing the Internet forums for possible solutions in my price range ($5,000.00).

I sort of like the new Midas M32 console, however recording is not it's primary purpose, so it's not what I would call a tight fit. It does however, have several nice features. I won't go into to detail on that board because the one that has impressed me the most is the DM4800. I realize it is no longer available in many locations, though there are a few still selling it new with a one year warranty. My Rolands have been in use long after the End of Life announcement, so that does not worry me.

With your indulgence, I would like to describe what I am looking for and hope that you wise and knowledgeable Tascam owners could tell me if this system would "fit the bill" so to speak. I'll describe my usage and present my questions.

Usage
========
1) Permanent installation, semi-pro studio. No portability is required.

2) DAW of choice is Studio One Professional, alternatively Pro Tools (only if I had to).

3) Computer platform: Apple Mac - OS (Yosemite)

4) Today, when I use the DAW for Post Production, I convert all of the VS files to Wave and load them into Studio One. I mostly mix in the box. I like the mastering ability of Studio One. That might change if my tools provide better options.



Questions/Requirements
====================
1) I like to have a minimum of 20 channel simultaneous recording available (rare, but it has happened.) I am assuming the DM4800 can do this with the firewire card ?

2) DAW control with more than 8 faders (the VS2480s have HUI control but only 8 faders in banks). I need to have control of 32 or more tracks at mix down from the faders. I hate using a mouse when mixing down. I would also like to be able to do fader automation as I do today on the VS2480, even if it is mixer automation and not on the DAW. I have read that the DM4800 is very good at that. Transport control of the DAW is obviously a must and it looks like the DM4800 has that covered. I would appreciate any elaboration on the DM4800's ability in this area.

3) I am used to working with the VS2480s while tracking. There was always zero latency in the headphone mix. When auto punching a part, a vocal could hear either the previous part or their live vocal until the punch occurred. That is configurable on the VS2480. Does the DM4800 have that capability?

4) What is the Latency like for musicians punching in an out on the DM4800 with a DAW using the 32 channel firewire adapter? This is extremely important to me. I have a friend who put together quite an expensive system with various components (Not an integrated console). It sounds nice, but he is always tip toing around latency issues. I never had that problem. Don't want to go there.

5) The VS2480 has 16 tracks of R-bus that can be routed to (in my case) the Behringer P16i Personal monitor interface which lets all the musicians control 16 channels for their own individual mixes. Would I be able to get a 16 channel mix out of the DM4800 (pre-fader) to a headphone system? I don't want to have to do headphone mixes for musicians in the board.

I apologize for being so wordy. I am just trying to cover my bases before committing to a brand new console and an entirely new methodology for recording. I may be missing some questions but these are certainly towards the top of my list. I appreciate any comments, questions or advise. Thank you so much.

BTW: I have to say after perusing the forum, sure seems like you have a great bunch of folks on here. I am excited to hear from this group : ) Thanks.

JK

 

[captdan]

Welcome.

There are several questions I'd like to try to answer, but I'll need more time later. Bear in mind I use a DM3200, which for all intents and purposes is the same, though somewhat smaller unit minus several goodies - but Question #4 is a moving target.

Simply put, you can eliminate ALL latency by monitoring the tracking input on the DM and NOT in the software. This is one of the principal advantages of tracking/mixing out of the box. However, it's going to boil down to your DAW as to how well - or IF - you'll be able to perform traditional PUNCH-INs while monitoring another guide track (via firewire) to accomplish them.

But, just like mixing out of the box has advantages, working INSIDE the box (DAW) with a different methodology, can as well. Since I'm not familiar with Studio One, I'll leave it in general terms: if you're coming from years of working with all-in-one machines (as I did with the Yamoha/44-16), you'd likely do yourself a favor investigating workarounds and changes in methodology to what you've been accustomed to. In other words, with increased power of a dedicated DAW, come features like rapid track cloning, cut/paste; playlist loops, etc etc. These tools can replace or enhance traditional punch in procedures.

CaptDan

 

[TascMan]

Hi JK,
Just thought I would chime in as well.
Question 1) About 20 channels available while recording (tracking)...

As you have probably figured out, you can send/receive 32 channels simultaneously via the DM firewire card to/from your DAW (Studio One in your case), regardless of whether you own a DM3200 or 4800. You can send those 32 channels at any sample rate up to 96Khz, at 24bits. Those 32 channels can be any mix of the 16 (3200) or 24 (4800) mic preamps onboard or any other input, including all digital inputs, and analog line level inputs. If you have no external preamps available, you will be limited to those 16 or 24 Mic/Line pres, depending on which board you have. With the analog add in card, you can expand to include 8 more line inputs, typically from the balanced line outs of external preamps, or any other line level source (effects etc.). Another source of inputs can come from external gear, like an 8 channel to ADAT piece (ADAT is built in to the DMs) or 24 channels of TDIF. This gets a little more complicated, but includes at least 1 MOTU 2408MKIII, which works well with these boards over TDIF or ADAT.

Question 2) About DAW fader control....


There are only 16 faders on a 3200 and 24 faders on a 4800. So, remote controlling 32 DAW faders(or up to infinite faders if your daw allows it) will require moving in banks, although whether they move in banks of 8 or one at a time depends on how your daw works. I use Reaper and can move my daw faders either 8 at a time or 1 at a time. You will not be able to control 32 faders without using BANK moves because you would only have 24 physical faders available on a 4800.
I use Mackie Machine control to use 16 faders simultaneously. (3200 here). Works great. You will also have control over your daw transport, PAN, SOLO, MUTE, Track ARM and Track SEL, as well as your DAW's main stereo buss volume.

Question 3 and 4: regarding latency....

3 and 4 are pretty much the same question. Can I monitor latency free with a DM? Yes you can. You just have to set it up correctly. Basically, your headphone mix would come from the DM's stereo buss. Playback any tracks you want from your DAW into the DM. Send that to headphones over the stereo buss. Have musician play/sing. Instrument/voice signal goes back into the DM and is split...One signal goes straight to your DAW, which handles the latency delay (I think Studio One should have NO problem with this) via your Firewire card/cable, and the other signal goes to your input faders on the DM, to be mixed in with the stereo buss signal that is going to the headphones. Easy 0 latency delay setup. But, this is only ONE way of doing it. There are three main methods of signal routing on the DMs. Check them all out via searches on this forum.

Question 5) Use of R-Bus like sends on the DM

I do not know much about R-Bus, but I think it is Roland's proprietary digital I/O, similar in many ways to Tascam's TDIF. I don't know the specs on R-bus either, but I can tell you that both the DM 3200 and the DM 4800 have 24 channels of TDIF available at 44.1Khz and 48Khz, 12 channels at 88.2 and 96Khz, unless you hook them up to a Tascam MX2424. And, like the R-Bus cables, the TDIF cables are proprietary. So, you can't use typical D-Sub 25 analog cables to hook it up. But, with actual TDIF cables, what you connect it to is your choice. Many here have been connecting the TDIF or the ADAT to Motu 2408MKIII units which can move all 24 channels of TDIF and ADAT at once, but will only convert 8 of those channels to analog at a time. To convert 24 channels of TDIF to 24 channels of analog, you will need to be creative. There are units out there that can convert up to 16 channels of TDIF (two D-Sub 25 connections) into 8 channels of analog. You may need to look into one of those for your 16 channels of monitoring.
Actaully, how did you connect your Power play with the R-Bus connections? The DM4800 does have 2 ADAT outs for 16 channels, if you wanted to do it that way. (Oopps, that is wrong..sorry, there is only one on both DM units!)

This really has been a great forum, I am on it almost everyday. I've been active on this and the previous one since 2007. Hope you will stay and keep the questions coming...
S

 

[Jkurtz]

Wow!! CaptDan and Tascman, thank you for those responses. The more I learn about the DM4800, the more I am impressed with it's ability. What a console!

Tascman, to answer your question about going from the the R-bus to the Powerplay, it goes like this:
R-bus 1 out of the VS using proprietary cable to a Roland product called a Dif-AT24 that converts R-bus to ADAT light pipe. ADAT signal goes to the Behringer M16i ADAT input #1. Then the same thing happens coming out of Rbus 2 on the VS, which goes to ADAT input #2 on the Behringer M16i. That gives me a total 16 channels going into the Monitoring system. The VS lets me determine which channels/tracks make up the 16 channels going to the Monitor system.

If I understand you correctly, the DM already has two 8 channel ADAT light pipe outputs built into the mixer. That would be Awesome, and I would not need an ADAT converter like I do with the VS. If that is the case, can I select which mixer channels make up the 16 channels of ADAT? If so, might I also be able to mix a set of channels (drums) down to stereo and send out the ADAT lightpipe on two of the 16 channels? That would be amazing!

CaptDan, sounds like you came from the same type of All-in-0ne environment. I agree I will need to get used to some new methodologies. Was the learning curve steep to go from the Yamaha 44-16 to the DM and a DAW? Did you ever feel like you were giving something up, or was it "All Good", but different?

Thank you both for those fast and detailed responses.

JK

 

[Arjan P]

I've been looking at the Powerplay P16 system myself in the past for use with the DM3200, but felt I couldn't justify it for the amount of full band sessions I do. But the DM is totally ready for it indeed, with one 'but': those 16 channels of ADAT are limited to 48k audio. But to answer your other question, you can send anything you like to those 16 channels, including stereo submixes if you use the bus channels on the DM. Ideal for the P16 system!

And yours truly also came from an all-in-one system, Akai DPS-16, and my experience is that you are so much more flexible with DAW and DM. It does have quite a learning curve, but once you come to terms with it this mixer is fantastic!

BTW, if your 20 channel sessions are limited, you might consider the DM3200 as well.. With 16 mic pres, 4 aux ins and 2 digital ins, you have in fact 24 inputs. My maximum has been 22 recording channels in that fashion.

 

[captdan]

Hey JK,

No - I felt I gave nothing up and gained a ton moving from all-in-one to DMixer/Controller/DAW. Primarily, having everything logically flowing into and out of one powerful platform and a hybrid mixer/contoller is a huge plus.

I was running Cubase for a few years before going to PT9/10. Despite its relatively small annoyances, for my workflow (big caveat here!), PT10 and the DM3200 (or 4800) are a very, very good match - particularly with routing out of the box. It's point and shoot ease which, for me, makes it just as fast to set up I/O as it did with my long gone AW4416.

That said, there's one distinct advantage to dedicated HD/mixers like the 2480/4416/Akai24, etc etc etc; aside from the smaller footprint (if that matters), there's virtual rock steady stability. Same can't always be said for a computer based DAW. However, once the kinks are worked out, there's no reason - save for file corruption, device failure, etc - a DAW can't be as stable. For me, that's where a lot of the learning curve happened, in the initial setup phase.

But my old "porta-potties" were great digital audio training grounds. I think you'll find that a lot of what you learned on the Roland will translate well to the DM. But don't expect the routing logic to be the same; a DM console is like a digital patch bay on steroids - with SO many ways to route signal, there's going to be some initial confusion. Don't worry - we've all been there.

CaptDan

 

[Jkurtz]

Arjan, thanks for that information. 48k to the monitoring system is fine for me. Sounds like the DM will work perfectly with the PowerPlay system. Sweeeeet!

CaptDan, thanks for the insight. I am still processing everything. It's a big step, but it's comforting to know you folks are out there.

Think I'll download the DM manual and peruse a while.

JK

 

[TascMan]

Sorry JKurtz, just to clear, there is only ONE (1) ADAT I/O built into the 4800. Same as the 3200. You would need an extra ADAT based ad-in card, or one MOTU2408MKIII (no need for the PCI card). You could send 16 channels of TDIF to two of the three TDIF banks in the MOTU 2408, then send two of the three banks of ADAT out to your Powerplay monitoring system. The MOTU 2408 would be acting as the same conversion device as your Dif-AT24 was for the R-bus. Find 2408s on ebay. Make sure it's the MKIII though.
BTW, you can pretty much send any input or buss to any output, analog, digital or FW....It's freqin' awesome!

 

[Jkurtz]

TascMan, glad you cleared that up. I was just reviewing the manual and only saw 8 input and 8 output for ADAT. I'll take a look at the MOTU 2408 (MKIII) vs the IF AD/DM card to get the extra 8 ports of ADAT.

JK.

 

[Jkurtz]

TascMan
Looks like the IF AD/DM card is only $199.00 new. Not to shabby. Think I'll price out the FireWire card now. I'm sure that will be more expensive.

JK

 

[TascMan]

I have both the MOTU unit and the analog card and use them constantly. I use the analog card as 8 analog ins and outs in a patchbay where my external pres are normaled to it. My 2408 is used for external analog stuff, like tape decks.

 

[Muziekschuur]

If you use the latest intel i7 or x6 or x8 AMD processors a DAW with latency compensation together with the Tascam DM4800 will enable full in the box.... high up to 90 channels... With a64 bit OS and DAW. SSD & 16 GB ram or more advised.

Two DM4800's can be cascaded right of of the box. Creating one very big digital console. Remember that this console does not like humidity or a hot environment.

 

[Jkurtz]

Muziekschuur
Thank you for that info. I am using a Mac i7 with a 64 bit DAW. Sounds like I should upgrade to 16gig of RAM (currently at 8gig)

I just purchased a DM4800. I will be picking it up this weekend. I am so excited! Got a good deal.

The thought of cascading has crossed my mind. I saw Lou Stonehill's video. Looks really impressive. Are there benefits other than increasing input channels? (ie..Workflow, control surface etc.. )Thanks.

JK

 

[captdan]

Don't take this as gospel, but I recall reading that the cascade cable is no longer available from Tascam. If anybody knows otherwise or can verify, please chime in.

And congrats on your DM4800.

CaptDan

 

[cmaffia]

It's no longer manufactured but I believe Tascam is providing the pin outs so you can make yourself or have it made

 

[cmaffia]

Actually.. here you go:

http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/cascade-cable-pinouts-files.47/

 

[Jkurtz]

CaptDan

Thanks. I am looking forward to picking it up this weekend. My control room is still under construction, so I m going to have to find some space to set up elsewhere and play awhile. I need to get to know her. : )

Cmaffia
Thank you for the Pin-out link.

Joe

 

[captdan]

Yes, another thanks from me, Charlie.

Joe: I hear ya about the control room build. And since this isn't your first rodeo, it goes without saying - take your time and get the setting built; the 'gem' will be that much more rewarding.

CaptDan

 

[Jkurtz]

Well...I picked up my Dm4800 this weekend. It is Beeeeutiful! I am so excited. Time to put my VS2480s up on Ebay. I also ordered the Meter bridge which should be in this week as well. It's like Christmas! : )

Thanks for all the input. It really helped guide me in the right direction. This is a great forum with caring members. I'm not really worried about the learning curve because I know if I get really stuck on something, there is a friendly, knowledgeable resource available. Thanks again.

Joe