"3D-sounding music" mixes.

[Slugworth]

I hope everyone is doing well. I wasn't sure which category to submit this post under. I do write songs and my question(s) is about engineering. Recently my friend (and singer on many of my songs) Laura sent me a mix of her song that she used this person's full-production service for https://www.airgigs.com/demo-produc...-Production-by-Multi-Instrumentalist-&-Singer

He did great work on her song to this point. Quality and sound-wise it sounds just like the songs under the Audio tab on his Airgig's page. I am linking my songs on SoundCloud only as reference to the differences in sound quality and depth of how mine were mixed/mastered compared to Gaston's work.

How does he (Gaston) achieve such a full sound and 3D projection? I love that work that Mariano (the engineer that I use) has done on my songs. However, after hearing Gaston's work I am now wondering how mine can possibly be improved to achieve a similar sound. I message Mariano about this and I am waiting for his reply. I figure I would bring it up here as well to hopefully obtain more input.

One thing that I notice between the two engineers is that Gaston's mixes seem to have more overall clarity, punch and depth with more noticeable low frequencies in the overall mix. Or at least definitely with low end on the bass guitar and drums (he uses drum kit samples and assembles them into arrangement).

To Mariano's defense I feel my songs use more instruments than those on Gaston's examples. My songs generally include bass guitar, drums, guitar(s), horns, keys, percussions and vocals. All of those are competing for space and frequencies which may effect clarity and projection within a mix.

Soundcloud link

https://soundcloud.com/nil_three%2Fsets%2Fnimo-playlist

All responses appreciated.

 

[Mark Richards]

...after hearing Gaston's work I am now wondering how mine can possibly be improved to achieve a similar sound. I messaged Mariano about this and I am waiting for his reply...

How that's accomplished is what audio engineers do for a living. Now that your guy knows the sound you're looking for, he should be able to deliver it.

 

[-mjk-]

3D mixing is a topic that is close to my roots as an engineer. I was working with a now-famous engineer back in the very early 80s, on 3-dimensional mixing (I was actually mentoring him on the technique). There were some amazing articles in Recording Engineer/Producer magazine that had charts to help engineers visualize the soundstage along with techniques to achieve that outcome. I couldn't wait for the next issue to arrive so I could dissect it.

Clients noticed. I started getting more mixing requests from outside.

When I built my modern studio I had to find software solutions for the hardware that we used, but I am happy to say that I can get any 3D stereo field now, that I used to get in the 80s.

Experience cannot be underestimated. One cannot simply slap on a plugin and expect good results. Spaces have to be created in the mix for instrument placement. Another very important aspect is unmasking.

To Mariano's defense I feel my songs use more instruments than those on Gaston's examples. My songs generally include bass guitar, drums, guitar(s), horns, keys, percussions and vocals. All of those are competing for space and frequencies which may effect clarity and projection within a mix.

I'm not going to make this about anyone personally, but the number of instruments and the spectrum is irrelevant. It all depends on the skill of the engineer and that starts with hearing.

The last thing I want to mention is that I couldn't have done what I did without the Aphex Aural Exciter, Type B. To this day I have an exciter on my console's 2-mix bus and ever mix I have ever done in my studio has had that exciter on the bus. There is something about psycho-acoustic juxtapositioning that can really clean up the midrange smear that may happen due to console components or (in a DAW) intermodulation distortion.

 

[Slugworth]

Hi MJ!
Thanks for the reply. I hope you are doing well?
This old (90's) video https://youtu.be/TEjOdqZFvhY?feature=shared is a great demonstration of mixing for 3D sound field. I'm not sure if I would trust that dude with his super-mullet and 70's porn mustache around children. but I would definitely trust him with my music . Joking of course. I'm sure he is or was a fine gentleman.

I've only very recently found out about mixing for a 3D sound. If I would have known about it prior I would have asked Mariano to aim for that from the beginning. My guess is that he is aware of it, but then the question becomes if he is then why didn't he apply it more.

What I also found out with his mixes (and likely most engineers mixes) is that it sounds much fuller with a sound system that provides better projection. In this case I am referring to my car's stereo system that has a separately powered sub, rear deck 6x9's, front doors 5"mids with separate 1" tweeter. I feel/hear my songs sound-wise are much improved with this better projection and at higher volumes. A couple of months ago I purchased a pair of Sony MDR-7506 that are an upgrade over my previous cans. They helped improve the quality of listening experience and also led me to focus on what my songs seem to be missing.

"To Mariano's defense I feel my songs use more instruments than those on Gaston's examples. My songs generally include bass guitar, drums, guitar(s), horns, keys, percussions and vocals. All of those are competing for space and frequencies which may effect clarity and projection within a mix." This statement was my guess and not anything that Mariano discussed with me.

I have messaged Gaston and this is one of his replies "I really appreciate it! To be honest, achieving a clear and punchy 3D mix starts with production. Choosing the right sounds for each instrument is crucial, and that's why mixing can take a good production to another level. What I'm trying to say is, there's a limit to what a mix can do, and that limit is how good the production is!"

"The last thing I want to mention is that I couldn't have done what I did without the Aphex Aural Exciter, Type B." I will ask Mariano if he has that as a plug-in.

One month ago I hired a person named Luca for this service https://www.airgigs.com/mixing-engi...om-a-professional-mixing-&-mastering-engineer
My hope at that time was for a warmer mix that doesn't sound so up-front or a feeling (sound) like I am hearing a recording of a live band at a very small venue instead of a radio-ready, very balanced mix. The song I chose for his response is named Waiting For You https://on.soundcloud.com/xqNyXl53OPq58njKrO

I sent Luca a link to my songs. He provided a pdf write-up (uploaded) of his thoughts and suggestions. He did not mention anything about aiming for a 3D sound. At that time I used his service I wasn't aware of 3D mixing.

I then sent Luca's write up to Mariano and this was his reply "Thank you very much for sharing that PDF from the other engineer. I’m going to take those suggestions and apply them to the song. Some points, like applying a high-frequency filter above 16kHz, I used to do a few years ago. Then I started feeling that it might remove some brightness from the songs, especially on hi-hats and guitars, but I think I have an idea of how to apply it so it works better. The sidechain compressor for the bass and kick—if I remember correctly—is already applied, but I’ll reconfigure it. Maybe it’s too subtle and needs more processing. I know the Pultec trick and I have that plugin, so I’ll use it. I think I had used another technique with a different EQ, but I’ll switch to the Pultec. I have all the plugins mentioned in the document, so I’ll try to make another mix considering everything the engineer suggested, as I agree with many of his points."

I have yet to receive Mariano's mix that he intends to apply those changes above to. Also to be considered is Mariano's price of $30 for his service of editing/quantizing/mixing/mastering per song compared to Gaston's price of $140 for mixing/mastering per song.

I finally reached a point a couple of months ago in which my desire to create and record at the pace that I'd been going at for the past two years has waned. Could be burn-out or that I have run out of ideas for songs. I know that eventually I will want to create again and when I do it will be at a much slower pace and a focus on quality of recording procedure and mixing over quantity.

I feel that the use of Mariano and his more than reasonable price that he charges for his time and service helped me to focus on the music and to afford the musicians that I hired to make it.

As a side note I've been listening to my own Bandlab mixes in a more basic form. If all of the other instruments not included could match the clarity of the ones that are I would be very content.
WFY - https://drive.google.com/file/d/16AuSPT_8yVGtVboyHp1y-5yNecHgEllJ/view?usp=drive_link
OSOB - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gyPT7H5UJ7n2bCqBr7njIdcFMuwlHSVq/view?usp=sharing

 

[Slugworth]

Mariano responded about an hour ago with this

“
I listened to the song you sent me and yes, I think it sounds really good. It’s a combination of elements, not just low frequencies, but also the sound used in the drums and bass. We can try something like that in the mixes, although as Gaston mentioned, everything starts in the production: which instruments you choose, what microphones, the initial sound, etc.

I don’t think it has much to do with your limitation with bit depth and sample rate. 44khz and 16bit is not bad, unless you record at a very low volume. Those settings can cause quality issues when recording at low levels. Ideally, of course, it’s better to record at 48khz and 24bit to have more headroom.

I also think what’s fundamental is that Gaston already knows what instruments to record with, both virtual and analog, and which sounds and amplifiers to use to achieve the sound he’s after. I believe it’s possible to do something similar with the songs we already mixed. We’d have to remix them from scratch, obviously, and it won’t sound exactly like what Gaston recorded, because of the way the original instruments were tracked, but we can definitely get closer.

Regarding the video you sent me, yes, I know that video and the book. It’s one of the ones I read when I studied music production, along with “Mastering: The Art and the Science” by Bob Katz, which is also a great book. Although they’re a bit old now and there are other tools available today, what they teach still works perfectly.”

 

[-mjk-]

I've only very recently found out about mixing for a 3D sound. If I would have known about it prior I would have asked Mariano to aim for that from the beginning. My guess is that he is aware of it, but then the question becomes if he is then why didn't he apply it more.

PDF won't open, btw.

No self-respecting engineer that I know would do anything for $30. Even $140 is very low for an actual recording/mixing/mastering engineer. These apps have really hollowed out the industry. There's no gate-keeper. People are engineers because they say they are. TBH, you're getting pretty good mixes for $30 but these would be really bad for $500.

Instead of reflecting on why one guy didn't live up to the hype, find another guy that does.

The good news is - your hearing ability is maturing. You are progressing and that is fantastic.