Aux / Inserts via Firewire

[Bob Jonezon]

I've been eying and researching the DM series for several years now, and finally pulled the trigger in the 4800, which is enroute.

I'm primarily a Cubase user, and my intent is to mix on the 4800 (sending tracks to the board via FW).

I'm hopeful about the built in eq / comp and other FX, and feel confident about routing configuration for external analog inserts and sends / returns.

One thing I'm not sure about is making use of FX on the DAW while mixing on the DM. Pre fader inserts can be handled simply within the DAW itself before sending to the DM, but thinking more of a scenario where I might want to use a post fader send on the DM to feed a reverb in the DAW, with the return coming back to the DM via FW.

It seems as though round trip latency through the DAW would create an issue in this scenario (with the return being delayed). Not sure if there's any compensation for this, or if there's a different routing configuration that would make more sense to leverage DAW FX as post fader sends on the DM.

Any thoughts / suggestions are greatly appreciated.

 

[Arjan P]

I've never tried what you suggest, but I think you're right in assuming the round-trip latency could be a problem. An option would be to record the post fader signal in Cubase and then mix with DAW FX on it, but I don't really see why you'd want to do that.

I don't use send FX in Cubase, but ofcourse it is possible to send the FX channels to the DM for separate mixing with the audio tracks. Not quite the same as what you want to do, I know..

 

[cmaffia]

What would the benefit be for a post fader send from the DM?

 

[captdan]

"...benefit be for a post fader send...?)

To print levels, EQ, compression/insert from DM channel module(s) to the DAW. Opposite of Input Bypass. AKA: 'Direct Send.'

CaptDan

 

[cmaffia]

Ah OK. I don't see that as a benefit though. Printing EQ and Effects is permanent. It's hard to commit to the treatment of tracks until mixdown and even then, how many times do we mix until it's "just right"?

 

[captdan]

Although I agree with you 105% (what's 5% among friends? ), being a fairly strict Input Bypass aficionado, there've been a few times when I opted to destructively print a signal through a DM module. In one case, I needed to combine a delay with a 'verb originating in a synth and found it easier to just bounce everything down to a stereo DAW track in one pass.

To mangle Yogi Berra: "Options are just two more ways to do something.."

CaptDan

 

[Gravity Jim]

I do tend to print the output of a mic channel to the DAW when tracking electric guitar. You just can't play a part with effects without having the effects on... So I'll record amp reverb, overdrive, time based effects, Leslie, etc, and sometimes DM compression or delays, and adjust both guitar and mix a little as I go.

 

[cmaffia]

I agree. Most of my guitar tracks are mic'd with pedals. I will then add plugins to that. That's about the only time I will print an effect.

 

[captdan]

You're both in good company. There was a very similar indepth discussion on an old recording forum several years back, where virtually every gtrist working with efx preferred the same method. The obvious consensus - a player's signature - or 'footprint' - is largely governed by their unique signal chain - fingers, chops and style notwithstanding..."

A few years ago, I played some solo tracks for a singer/songwriter in a distant state. When I finished my parts, I sent back two wave files - a dry mono track and another stereo version printed with the auxed efx I tracked with. Bottom line - the artist used the latter, which in that case was the better option, I thought. But it was nice to be able to provide two because, who knows how the final mix will go down?

CaptDan

 

[Arjan P]

I've started recording the raw guitar signal (split with a DI) along with the effected or amped 'normal' signal chain some years ago. Even the most sceptic guitarist happens to like the option to either rerun the signal through FX and amps, and some are even happy with a doubled track through a VST amp. And what's one extra mono track in DAW-land?

 

[TascMan]

I do the same thing Arjan. I split it using a little-labs redeye. It's nice to have a dry track to mess with, adding guitar models at will. I have even spread both tracks wide, to give it a doubling effect, phase free.

 

[Bob Jonezon]

What would the benefit be for a post fader send from the DM?

For reverb during mixdown. I typically run reverbs on post fader sends in the box right now.

I've gotten quite comfortable with a few plug-ins I've got. If I pull all the mix work down to the 4800, running a post fader send back to the DAW to use one of those plugins is probably out due to round trip latency.

As I've read further on the idea, this is a common question encountered when mixing on an analog console, with folks asking about using a post fader send on the console to PT for a reverb.

The round trip latency makes it infeasible. Thought maybe it was possible to compensate for that latency since everything is in the digital domain in my scenario, but still looks to be an issue.

Not a huge deal. I'm looking forward to experimenting with the built in verbs in the DM. If I'm still wanting for more, will be time to look for an outboard processor.

 

[TascMan]

For reverb during mixdown. I typically run reverbs on post fader sends in the box right now.

I've gotten quite comfortable with a few plug-ins I've got. If I pull all the mix work down to the 4800, running a post fader send back to the DAW to use one of those plugins is probably out due to round trip latency.

As I've read further on the idea, this is a common question encountered when mixing on an analog console, with folks asking about using a post fader send on the console to PT for a reverb.

The round trip latency makes it infeasible. Thought maybe it was possible to compensate for that latency since everything is in the digital domain in my scenario, but still looks to be an issue.

Not a huge deal. I'm looking forward to experimenting with the built in verbs in the DM. If I'm still wanting for more, will be time to look for an outboard processor.

I am still trying to wrap my head around why you would take a track in Cubase, send it to the DM, then send that signal post DM module fader, back into Cubase to record a Cubase reverb. Why wouldn't you just insert that Cubase reverb on that track first and make adjustments before sending out to the DM for mixing? If it's for bussing, then buss all required signals within cubase and send that buss with the reverb on it out to the DM for mixing. I do understand sending out a post fader signal to an outboard effect and returning that to be printed back in your daw. I do that all the time.
That being said, I don't think the latency would be that bad if this is just for a reverb. Latency is a pain when you are trying to play monitored virtual instruments, where over 10ms or more is common. But, even at 10ms, I don't think that small time frame would be perceived in listening to a subtle reverb in a mix. 10ms would actually give you a little natural sounding predelay in the verb. Have you actually tried it yet?

 

[cmaffia]

Tascman, I bussed each of my Cubase effects to a stereo pair on the DM via firewire. Worked like a charm.

 

[TascMan]

Perfect CM.
And all apologies to Bob. He is probably sick of explaining his methodology for this thread. It just still doesn't make sense to me but I know he has good reasons, and I wanted to help.

 

[Bob Jonezon]

Let me level set a little bit...

I currently work entirely in the box on cubase. In my mixing workflow, I use channel inserts (pre fader) for things like EQ / Compression provided by plugins.

I also make use of Pre-Fader sends for things like parallel compression.

I also make use of post fader sends for reverbs. I like having my reverbs post fader, so I can handle mutes, etc... appropriately when that reverb send is used by multiple tracks.

All of these inserts and sends are being sent to plug in instances (on FX tracks) in Cubase.

Ok... now, I'm looking to introduce the DM-4800 to my workflow. My goal is to move the vast majority of my mixing workflow to the console. I really miss the workflow associated with a console, and have found myself trapped in mixing "with my eyes", far more than my ears, as I've been mixing in the box, with a mouse on a computer screen.

I'm looking for more than just DAW control. I want to be able to shut the computer monitor off and mix off the console.

My intent is to pump all of the tracks put of the DAW (as if it was a standalone recorder) to the DM via FW and mix there.

I'm still going to need eqs and comps as channel inserts, pre fader sends for things, and post fader sends for things.

I know that all of these facilities are available in the DM, and there's no need to go back to the DAW for anything at that point.

Unless... I want to use any of the DAW plugins I've learned and have become comfortable with over time in any of the above situations.

Anything pre-fader I can technically do in the DAW before the track comes in to the DM. (I do realize I'm back to turning the monitor on, and doing some level of work in the DAW). As an example, I could insert an EQ or Compressor plug in on the track in the DAW, and everything is fine in that scenario. I could also use pre fader sends in the DAW... still no issues.

The only issue I can find is with post fader sends. Since the "post fader point" exists in the DM in my proposed workflow, if I want to use a post fader send to route to a DAW plug in (such as a reverb) the send / return path is now DM-> DAW-> DM. And it's my understanding that round trip latency is introduced in that path (even if it is all in the digital domain.

I'm not willing to accept an arbitrary amount of latency even on a reverb that may change with sample rate or buffer sizes.

I know all these problems go away if I simply do DAW control with the DM, but I really do want to get to a point where 90%+ of my workflow is off the DAW. At some point I'm willing to sacrifice using DAW plugins as post fader sends to accomplish that. In fact, my hope is to eventually get away from using DAW plugins pre fader (whether inserts or sends) so I truly can just shut the monitor off in the future.

I'm not complaining. Round trip latency to the DAW is an understandable constraint, and it's not unique to the DM. Like I said, the same issues would exist if I was using an analog desk.

I more just wanted to confirm this was the case, and maybe see if there was something simple I had missed (that doesn't involve significant workflow changes).

Thanks for all of the thoughts / insight.

 

[Bob Jonezon]

Perfect CM.
And all apologies to Bob. He is probably sick of explaining his methodology for this thread. It just still doesn't make sense to me but I know he has good reasons, and I wanted to help.

Lol... Just saw your post after I posted my lengthy explanation.

No sweat. I do appreciate the thoughts / insights.

 

[TascMan]

Thank you Bob. This new post explains everything perfectly, and, again, I am sorry to have you redo it. You wont need to again.
Your workflow is typical and makes perfect sense. I know what you mean by wanting to get out of mixing purely in the box, and I can attest to the audible differences to mixing ITB vs OTB, as well as the tactile.

The shortest path I could think of in this scenario would require routing the soft inserts in the DM, to corporate an "effects loop" with the Cubase reverb you want on this track, post DM fader.

So, send the Cubase track you want to add post DM fader verb to Directly into the DM, via a Fire wire channel, and into a DM input module. Say, Channel 30, for no particular reason. Make sure you take this track off of the master stereo buss in Cubase. We only want to hear this track.

Then, find a free (unassigned Fire wire channel--say SLOT1-28). Check that it's not currently assigned to any inputs and that it is free in your ALT/ROUTING/output slot page. Now go to INSERT tab at the bottom right. Select Module 30 at the top of the INSERT Page. Now use POD4 to select SLOT1. Under send and return, move the jog wheel until you see SLOT1-28 listed under send and return.
Now, in Cubase, setup a track to accept an input signal from FW channel 28. Insert your Cubase reverb on it, with the Cubase fader at unity. Now, send that Cubase track OUT over SLOT1-28 back over FW to DM channel 30. Now you have created an insert "effects loop" for your Cubase verb, BUT, there are a couple more steps...
Go to the CH30 module and hit the setup tab. Use your curser buttons to move the selection box down to second row of 4 knobs, where it says "Comp Insert" "Comp SW" etc.
The next thing in that row is "Assign Insert". That's what we just did, so make it POST FADER, and the next one is ASSIGN INS SW (Assign Insert Switch) to ON.
Make sure this module is then assigned to the stereo buss, or what ever you are using to send it out to monitor. I think you should be in business now.

 

[Bob Jonezon]

Thank you Bob. This new post explains everything perfectly, and, again, I am sorry to have you redo it. You wont need to again.
Your workflow is typical and makes perfect sense. I know what you mean by wanting to get out of mixing purely in the box, and I can attest to the audible differences to mixing ITB vs OTB, as well as the tactile.

The shortest path I could think of in this scenario would require routing the soft inserts in the DM, to corporate an "effects loop" with the Cubase reverb you want on this track, post DM fader.

So, send the Cubase track you want to add post DM fader verb to Directly into the DM, via a Fire wire channel, and into a DM input module. Say, Channel 30, for no particular reason. Make sure you take this track off of the master stereo buss in Cubase. We only want to hear this track.

Then, find a free (unassigned Fire wire channel--say SLOT1-28). Check that it's not currently assigned to any inputs and that it is free in your ALT/ROUTING/output slot page. Now go to INSERT tab at the bottom right. Select Module 30 at the top of the INSERT Page. Now use POD4 to select SLOT1. Under send and return, move the jog wheel until you see SLOT1-28 listed under send and return.
Now, in Cubase, setup a track to accept an input signal from FW channel 28. Insert your Cubase reverb on it, with the Cubase fader at unity. Now, send that Cubase track OUT over SLOT1-28 back over FW to DM channel 30. Now you have created an insert "effects loop" for your Cubase verb, BUT, there are a couple more steps...
Go to the CH30 module and hit the setup tab. Use your curser buttons to move the selection box down to second row of 4 knobs, where it says "Comp Insert" "Comp SW" etc.
The next thing in that row is "Assign Insert". That's what we just did, so make it POST FADER, and the next one is ASSIGN INS SW (Assign Insert Switch) to ON.
Make sure this module is then assigned to the stereo buss, or what ever you are using to send it out to monitor. I think you should be in business now.

That's exactly what I had envisioned in my head. Thanks for the thorough reply.

In this scenario, my concern is that the "return" of the above loop will be delayed relative to all of the other tracks.

I may have for example 24 tracks exiting the DAW to the DM.

Those 24 tracks would route:

DAW-> DM Channels (via FW) -> DM Stereo Bus

If I introduce a post fader send / return loop via fire wire the full chain for the return looks like:

DAW -> DM channels (via FW) -> DAW FX Channel (via FW) -> DM return channel (via FW) -> DM Stereo Bus.

It seems as though the FX returns coming back would be delayed by whatever the current round trip latency is relative to the other tracks "direct" from the DAW.

I know this would absolutely be the case if it was an analog desk. Thought maybe by some marvel of engineering there was a latency compensation mechanism for this type of case if it's all in the digital domain, but it would be an incredibly difficult amount of coordination between the DAW and the DM to get right.

My board will be here later this week so I can actually test / confirm.

 

[TascMan]

So I just tried this idea and it works! With no hearable latency. I ran an old kick track (for its staccato...ness) from reaper track 1 out to DM CH 30, setup an insert on CH30 over FW ch28, going back into Reaper on a separate track that accepted FW28 in and sent the results FW28 out. I had to arm that second reaper track and put the reverb on the input effects, and monitor it in real time, as well as take it off of the main reaper stereo buss. That worked perfectly. Then, to see if there was any latency, I added the 1rst reaper track with the kick back to the reaper stereo buss to compare the two. Both kick and reverbed kick were in perfect time! Yea