AUX-sends on the DM3200

[snafu]

Hi everyone,

I am currently very curious about the eight AUX sends the DM3200 has to offer. Now, I'd like to establish a basic functionality that is described in the manual. My studio should receive a distinct monitor mix via AUX 1-2.

Now, to begin with - in the manual I couldn't figure out how to get signals to the AUX in the first place. I somehow thought my stereo source would be mirrored to AUX 1-2, but obviously that's not the case.

Here is what I am trying to do:
The band in the studio should hear everything I hear on my control room monitors PLUS the talkback mic (yep, the internal one), every time I hit TO SLATE. Now the talkback part is all set up and should not be a problem at all.

When I press '3' (Monitor) on the numeric entry panel it says STUDIO SETUP -> OUTPUT AUX1-2. Now, I would guess I have to assign my stereo sum to AUX 1 (left channel) and AUX2 (right channel), but...where?

Thanks for any intel,
kind regards
snafu

 

[Arjan P]

@snafu To start with your last paragraph: Studio Setup refers to the use of the Studio outputs of the mixer. So here you select what should go to these outputs, and Talkback will be added to the Studio Outputs. On the Osc/Com page you can select where Talkback should go when you use To Slate (under Communication).

Therefor, referring to your earlier paragraph - what you want is much easier to achieve by simply using the Studio outputs into your headphone amp. Now you select in the Monitor page not AUX1-2 but From Control Room. Done! Well, if you use the To Studio button for Talkback now and not the To Slate button..

But you have to realize what you want to do: do you want a dedicated mix in the control room and the same in the studio outputs? Usually (and I do this too) what is done in the control room stays in the control room, so you can for instance Solo a source during tracking without the whole band also hearing this selection (and losing everything else). To achieve this, you make a seperate mix for headphones in Aux1-2, select this to be pre-fader (important!) and the band hears this mix, regardless of the mix in the control room. Ofcourse, now you DO have to select Aux1-2 to be the source for 'To Studio', see previous paragraph.

There is also a way to very easily copy the current fader levels to the aux1-2 levels (as a starting point), but lets leave that for now. I hope this all makes sense..

 

[snafu]

Hi Arjan,

seems like I must take one step at a time here - so let's see where I do some mistakes.

1) OK, so PC is on, DM3200 is on. If I listen back via monitors I get signals. So far so good.
2) Now I'm pressing '3' on the numeric panel of the DM, and head for the monitor tab
3) The screen reads as follows
- Control Room Select --> Aux 1-2 to Sel1, Digital In to Sel2, 2Trk to Sel 3
- 'Follow Link' checkbox is unticked
- Dimmer Level = -20dB

to the right:
Output
- 'From Control Romm' is now selected
- Level = -20dB

Unfortunatelly I don't receive signal on the studio side. I tried
- doing nothing (but playing back music on the PC)
- pressing TO SLATE (TO STUDIO inactive)
- pressing TO STUDIO (TO SLATE inactive)
- pressing TO SLATE/TO STUDIO (both active)

Neither of these provided sound. Any guesses or places I might check? Thanks!

 

[snafu]

OK- first problem solved! Through all of this I found out I connected my studio outputs to the 2Trk input on the siderack. OK, so - check!

Now to the next part: of course more flexibility is always welcome So, yes, I was unaware that my band would just hear a copy of what I hear. That's not exactly what I want (though I could get along with it).

Say I work in my DAW, everyone is in the studio, and I want them to hear the last take, and also have the ability to make use talkback at the same time.
Could you advise me on how to establish that? I'd like to recreate your method here, and see where it takes me. As always: thank you, Arjan!

 

[Arjan P]

You're welcome, no bother. To be honest - I usually have the mixer set up so that the headphones get a copy of CTL Room sound - it's simply easier and I don't have to think about Aux1-2. But my example above is specifically for tracking, so during recording I can check the drums for a strange ring or so without everyone stopping their playing.

So in that case, the Studio Setup Output on the Monitor screen > Monitor Tab is set to Aux1-2. Now ofcourse I also have to send the channels that are used for playback from the DAW to Aux1-2, so the musicians can hear with me. If for example I use CH1-16 for tracking (input to DAW) and CH17-32 for playback (output from DAW), I have to send all channels (from 1-32) to Aux1-2 and then everyone hears themselves during recording and during playback, and you have Talkback by using To Studio. Good luck!

 

[snafu]

Thanks.
So just to be clear

If for example I use CH1-16 for tracking (input to DAW) and CH17-32 for playback (output from DAW), I have to send all channels (from 1-32) to Aux1-2

you are referring to the firewire-card's channels, aren't you? And also: this would be the scenario where I would have to assign my talkback under the COMMUNICATION tab to AUX1-2 also? Am I right?

I am not at the desk right now, but how do you exactly assign AUX anyway? The only set up screen I can remember, where AUX even appears, is ROUTING, and than the input tab. But this will only assign a physical input to the AUX-channels. And they can't be found on OUTPUT or OUTPUT SLOT.
I went through the manual, but it seems I am missing an important point here. You guessed it - I never had use for the eight AUX'

I usually have the mixer set up so that the headphones get a copy of CTL Room sound

So, basically I could save another project on the cf-card, like one set up for tracking, one for recording?

 

[Arjan P]

No, I was talking about the mixer's channels - but that also means mixer CH1-16 are also directly output to the FW Out channels 1-16 (Output Slot screen) and mixer CH17-32 receive input from FW In channels 1-16.

Please read back my previous posts when you're at the desk. It's all in there: Communication setting is for 'To Slate' and the Studio Setup is where you set that Aux1-2 are output to the Studio outs. You automatically have talkback here now by using 'To Studio'.

Also, there is a difference between Aux and ASN Send. Aux is internal in the mixer and can be assigned to many physical outputs - 4 of them being ASN SND 1-4. And the ones we are using here: Studio Out L and R.

And yeah, I usually use a mixer scene for recording and overdubbing (so tracking) and another for mixing.

 

[snafu]

Thank you so much Arjan.
It doesn't sound to complex, though I had to revisit the manual - I am still not quiet sure about the AUX, but I think I get it to work.

No, I was talking about the mixer's channels - but that also means mixer CH1-16 are also directly output to the FW Out channels 1-16 (Output Slot screen) and mixer CH17-32 receive input from FW In channels 1-16.

I think I understand now: you're mixing your monitor-mix for the band on your DM? Correct me, if I am worong. But if so, it's very different from my approach. I must admit though, for all the time I had my DM in use, I think I never made use of those second Channel layer (17-24). I was happy enough with two return channels that would sum up everything going out of the PC, without having to assign dedicated outputs in my DAW first. But I see a big deal of flexibility in your approach, and kinda feel tempted to give it a try

My studio is a homestudio after all, and I finished the whole building process in January. Thanks to Covid19 I have lots of time now to explore everything ;-)
It really feels, as if you started back on square zero!

cheers,
snafu

 

[Arjan P]

Oh, yeah, I totally assumed this was clear: The thing is, if you monitor through the recording DAW you will be adding latency - especially for recording. Signal then goes into DM, out of DM (FW) to DAW, back out from DAW into DM and then to the headphone amp. So in my case the signal goes into DM, then splits after the A/D and one set goes directly to DAW through FW to be recorded (monitoring in DAW is off) and the other set goes out through the Studio outs to headphone amp - with a dedicated mix for recording and added FX in the DM.

But I also do my mixing from the DAW through the DM. A maximum of 32 channels goes out to the DM, mixed with also outboard FX and then recorded directly into Wavelab. Therefor I don't use the Control Room in Cubase either, since the DM already has all functionality.

 

[skier]

@snafu A few thoughts that might help you regarding cue mixes:

In my recording of bands and as a past professional musician myself, the one point that has always stood out is how almost all of us wants/needs to hear ourselves well in a cue mix during our performance. In a performance situation without cans or in-ear monitors, we’re usually near the instrument we’re playing, whether an acoustic instrument, or just in front of an amplifier. That assures we can hear ourselves well enough to know we’re in sync, tune, that it sounds good, that what we’re playing is right for the moment, etc. But in the studio when multi-tracking in isolation, we don’t have that advantage and most musicians I’ve recorded always yearn for more of themselves. To that end, you’ll find many mixing options given to individual musicians in professional studios so they can mix what they themselves hear - it’s a great solution! But it’s also an expensive one to be able to provide such capability to each player and singer. I’ve had great success with a much cheaper approach.

Most singers and players don’t truly need their own custom mix, rather, they just need “more me”. So what I do is use a headphone amp that provides my main studio out mix with the ability to give each musician just a little more of themselves. A number of headphone amps provide that capability at affordable prices. They won’t provide a mixing station at each player position, but they will allow the engineer to adjust each player’s can volume independently, and that has proven to be quite enough in my sessions. Also, it’s not important that these amps provide the full fidelity of your recording with a high sample rate and 24 – 32 bit sound depth; CD quality is certainly more than enough.

I just did a quick search to get you a place to start and found this article that explains things and reviews 9 headphone amps. The article is rather simplistic, but it provides enough to get you started. Here’s a link to the article:

https://www.wikiaudio.org/best-studio-headphone-amp/

One more sub-topic: effects for the players. I’ve also found that providing a dry mix from each player mixed into the studio out mix that goes to each of the players is generally more than enough – depending on where in your channel chain you grab each player’s contribution, they don’t usually hear themselves as “dry” (even if it is) because the studio mix also contains them and the rest of the band with effects. However, there is sometimes an exception: singers, especially the lead singer. They generally need more of one specific effect: reverb. Because the lead singer is usually the most prominent part of the song, his/her amplitude is normally the highest, and they come down the middle so they’re in both the left and right channels. “More me” in that case can be high enough in amplitude to minimize the reverb in their mix and dry out the sound of themselves and affecting inspiration. A little bit of reverb added to their contribution can make a big difference in their performance.

Of course, there will be some musicians who really have the ears to need more of something else also (EQ, delay, chorus, etc.), but I haven’t experienced that yet.

I hope this helps,

Jerry

 

[snafu]

Hey Jerry, thanks for chiming in.

Since I'm still stuck, it will be necessary for me to step back a bit. I appreciate your help and thoughts on the matter. I will try to make this short and comprehensive;

I started building my studio five years ago. I have a recording room and a control room at hand (see pictures below). I have two 4-channle-headphone-amps in the recording room; each can be adressed via patchbay and my Tascam DA-8, so including my DAW, I can tweak each headphone mix to the musician's desire. I also can adress each musician wearing headphones at once this way. Oh - I use Mackie HM-400's headphone-amps.

The whole point of this question was to make use of the DM's studio-outputs on the rear-side of the DM. Thanks to Arjan I got this covered now.

So my status right now:
I can press "To Studio" on the DM, and can communicate with the musicians in the recording room, while they hear me over two dedicated speakers in the recording room. If I play back any sound, it get's "mirrored" to the recording room, so they can hear, what I hear.

So, what I can't get to work right now, is as follows:

1) I'd like to have a bit more control: I'm looking for a way to easily switch on/off the signal that is passed to the Studio outputs of the DM, whereas Talkback should be independent from this. Just a little example: We've recorded a song, everyone is taking his headphones down, and I play the song in the control room. And with just one flick of a switch the signal gets via Studio Outputs to my speakers in the recording room.
--> Arjan, I apologize right now: I haven't fully covered your solution, and I'm sure that's just what you told me to do (oh, I can virtually see you rollin' eyes ;-) )

2) As I said before - Talkback should be available all the time, so that I can choose to talk with the person in the recording room, and just punch in any other signal at any time (well: from ONE source that would be of course....)

3) DIM - Right now, I got Talkback functionality, but DIM doesn't do anything. Isn't it supposed to dim a signal at the ammount shown in the Dimmer Setup? I know, it does not refer to talkback as such, but a signal lying "under" the talkback...so to speak. Only thing is: If I press "To Studio" every other signal is muted, except for talkback (Dimmer Setup Level @ - 6dB at the moment).

4) What exactly is "To Slate" supposed to do? Right now it does nil?

Have a bit patience with me - I guess I'm very slow to learn^^

Thanks, and have a great sunday,
cheers
Thorsten

First picture
Second picture

 

[skier]

I believe slate came from the movie industry - it was a slate clapper, the handheld device that a person claps with the name of the take and scene at the beginning of each take when filming begins. But for sound recording, we used to put that information aurally onto a track at the beginning of the audio tape as a form a labeling specifying the name of the band, the song, the studio, the engineer, etc. So when going to digital recording, it has been kept, not so much for explaining the content of a music file, file names can do that, but rather for additional uses that have been discovered over the last 60 years or so for talkback, cuing, and more. These days, it’s really more of an additional output that we can use any way that we find useful.

Slate doesn’t have dedicated output jacks as Studio and Monitor do, rather, you route the Slate output to any one or more available output jacks(s) you want. So, Slate output can go out analog ports, such as an Aux Send or out a port on an AN/DM module, or out a digital port or onto one or more tracks – it’s very flexible.

DIM is only for the Control Room output to lower, but not mute the audio. You can use it to lower the level for a moment to chat with someone or answer a phone call when listening to a playback, but not wanting to stop it. I don’t believe you can “DIM” any other output with that button.

For switching the studio output on or off, the Studio output jacks can be sent a stereo signal from many different sources, including AUX sends. You can turn that output on and off from the “To Studio” button in the Monitoring section.

And don’t forget, there’s nothing truly special about Slate or Studio outs that make you have to use them. You can send a signal or mix of signals from any tracks, busses, cues, or talkback through any output jacks and use a Mute or linked Mute buttons (in the case of stereo) however you want. The reason that the DM can be so confusing is because it is so darn flexible and you can do most anything you want to do. But that does require an initial study of the mixer.

All of the foregoing is in the DM user manual. I read it through several times when I first purchased the DM and go back to it whenever I’m attempting something new or if I’ve been away from the studio for a while (like SKIING season!) and need to refresh myself with the details of some operating parameter.

 

[Arjan P]

Nice rooms @snafu ! And no, I'm not rolling my eyes..

1) I think the only controls to start/stop audio through the Studio speakers are your DAW transport buttons. There is no such thing on the DM. You either mirror Control Room audio or a dedicated mix from Aux1-2 as we discussed (or something else altogether), but there is no on/off for the outputs. If you need this you have to use a solution external to the DM. I use a very similar setup but don't have speakers in the recording room, only headphones - but I also have to use the DAW transport. Luckily that usually coincides with the times I want the others to hear or not hear sound ;-)

3) DIM is a function for the Control Room outputs. Say, you're listening rather loudly to a new take but someone says something. You push DIM and the sound in the control room is attenuated with the set amount - with audio still continuing.

4) To Slate is almost the same as To Studio, but where Studio is always a fixed destination for Talkback (=the Studio Outputs), the Slate destination for Talkback is essentially internal to the mixer first and you can select any of the 16 Buses or the 4 Auxes. From there ofcourse the signal can be sent forward to wherever, but you have more control this way. [As an example, you could use the 4 Auxes for a dedicated mix to each of the ASN-Sends, where 4 musicians listen to their own (mono) mix in the recording room. If now you only want to talk to the bandleader on Aux-1, you set Aux-1 as the Slate destination (MONITOR screen > OSC/COM Tab) and the others don't hear it now.]

EDIT: Skier was just ahead of me, but what we both say is true

 

[skier]

EDIT: Skier was just ahead of me, but what we both say is true

Of course, Arjan again speaks the truth.