Digital Snakes and DM mixers. Any experiences, info?

wm_b

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As I am trying to get to sleep wondering how I'll be rigging my 24x8 analog snake for a festival tomorrow I cannot help but wonder if there's a compatible digital snake system that works with our mixers. It's the one thing about so many gigs that takes the longest, is completely unpredictable and awkward and can grind a setup to a halt. The shear weight of the thing is a liability when I have to fly it.

Oh well, sleep tight.

Cheers, BB
 
I can't see why any of them that terminate to analog audio would have a problem ... they should "just work". I tell you, running a couple hundred feet of ethernet cable is much nicer than running a couple hundred feet of snake, especially when it's time to strike it at the end of the show :)
 
The only realistic digital snake option for the DM is pairing it with a newer digital mixer with its own digital snake. There are a couple of different Cat5 cards for the DM (CobraNet and Axiom?), but none are compatible with the leading digital snake protocols protocols- neither will give you more than 16 channels, and the breakout options on the analog end are prohibitively expensive... I recently looked into digital snaking as I'm expanding my studio into another suite down the hall from me, and the most cost effective digital snaking I could come up with [while still working around the DM] was buying ANOTHER DM and a pair of $500 Cobranet cards. For about the same price or less I could buy a new SSL or Yamaha board with its own ready-to-go digital snake, and be a lot less limited.

The new Sweetwater catalog has a half dozen 24+ motor-fader boards that come with Cat5-snakes for under $5k, this is one area in particular where the DM is very clearly EOL.
 
The only realistic digital snake option for the DM is pairing it with a newer digital mixer with its own digital snake. There are a couple of different Cat5 cards for the DM (CobraNet and Axiom?), but none are compatible with the leading digital snake protocols protocols- neither will give you more than 16 channels, and the breakout options on the analog end are prohibitively expensive... I recently looked into digital snaking as I'm expanding my studio into another suite down the hall from me, and the most cost effective digital snaking I could come up with [while still working around the DM] was buying ANOTHER DM and a pair of $500 Cobranet cards. For about the same price or less I could buy a new SSL or Yamaha board with its own ready-to-go digital snake, and be a lot less limited.

The new Sweetwater catalog has a half dozen 24+ motor-fader boards that come with Cat5-snakes for under $5k, this is one area in particular where the DM is very clearly EOL.

I was afraid that this is where things stand for the DM series. I love my console and have enjoyed building my working relationship with it over the years. I've always felt like there was something I could learn rather than needing to find a way around a challenge. I've used a DM console nearly daily since 2004 and have had no interest in looking toward others. Perhaps I need to reconsider that position. I suppose right after I get a digital snake happening they will have a wireless option...
 
I have been looking at the Roland Series Digital Snakes, mainly because they have a FOH unit the S-4000H which gives 8x32 Analogue I/O from their stage units which would connect with If-AN/DM cards neatly. Also they have a standalone remote preamp gain and Phantom controller S-4000R. There is also control from software from a Laptop. These systems work at 96khz 24bit natively.
 
If tascam updated the chipset, added eq to the outputs and sold a card for optional snake with digitally controled preamps, I would be first in line to drop 10k. Worked on a lot of desks, even for eol, my DM does what many others do not. Can't get rid of it yet. On point, I agree that there are no viable options for a digital snake with the Tascam, not for a price that wouldn't be under the ilives I use all the time live.
 
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Hi

Why not use ADAT snakes? I.e. this: http://www.appsys.ch/en/products/extenders.

I use the older version of the ADX16 without problems.


Best regards.

This is brilliant and very well may save me hundreds to thousands of dollars this year. Thanks for the lead! I had no idea ADAT could be sent over Cat5 so easily. So we can effectively run an Octopre (or any rack with lightpipe output, even an old ADAT tape box) over ethernet as an 8 or 16 channel digital snake into the DM's lightpipe inputs and/or ADAT card. Amazing.
 
Hey everyone, or at least those with the IF/FW cards in their DM mixers, have you considered Dante virtual sound card as a conduit to digital snake's and networks? You should be able to patch up to 32 ch in and out of your desks with your computer connected to a Dante network. Im not sure what the latencies would be but this should work.
 
You have to get the signal in and out of the console somehow, and DVS only works if there is some kind of native Dante card resident either in the console or in some type of interface device. DVS will not connect Dante to another source in your PC. You have to use Dante Via for that purpose. Dante Via can connect 16 channels of almost anything together with the Dante Audio Network but the latency can be ridiculous. I brought a USB condenser microphone into my digital console through my Dante Audio Network using Via and the latency was almost one second.
 
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Thanks for the response -mjk-,

How about adding something like Soundflower (for Mac) in the mix?
 
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No idea @CATS LTD. I'm not a Mac person. My guess is nothing but a native card (like the Brooklyn) or VIA is going to connect your DM to Dante. There never was a Dante card for that console. Awhile back there was a discussion about converting some other format to Dante somewhere in the DM forum. While that may work, any and all conversion schemes add latency.
 
Same issues on the Mac. But as with the PC (and Dante), there are some ways to deal w it. Most reliable and useful approach on the MOTU / AVB side I have found is to provide the audio to/from the DM using an interface or interfaces (MOTU 624, 16A, LP32. 112d, etc.) with ADAT optical or other digital format (like AES-EBU). That way, you don’t have to delay any audio from the network by recording or monitoring it thru any FireWire at all - unless u want to. Then you can deal w latency.

Using this approach, you can provide 8x8 i/o to and from the network over the internal ADAT optical, and 8x8 over each of the 3 TDIF jacks (with some conversion magic) - 32x32 without using any slots - and of course, 8x8 for each ADAT or AES card you may have installed. If you keep the FireWire card, that means 3 slots (24x24 I/o) of ADAT or AES, for a total of 56x56 channels of digital I/o coming from one or more interfaces, DAWs and/or sound sources clocked and networked using AVB, in my case, or Dante converters and/or interfaces). If you kept the FireWire card in the first or third slot, that means an additional 32x32 channels of FireWire audio, 88x88 choices for input, return and output routing within the 4800’s 64x64 limits.

as far as soundflower, other audio routing software, etc. I use a program called audio hijack to record a 2-track master from my mains. I can switch the monitors to listen to that signal, which is post-processed and the latency is noticeable. However, if you are only recording the audio, and listening using a closer to zero latency monitoring approach as you track, it’s a much less important issue. I use it for metering, and I can easily spot the latency comparing the signal to my hardware meters (to say nothing of hearing it).

Software to record and distribute audio internally on the Mac is useful but my opinion, to minimize latency and keep your music feeling immediate, avoid processing audio through the computer before you monitor or track it. Just adding a plugin, etc., shouldn’t slow down the timing of the software instrument you are playing through it, etc., but that is indeed how it works. For this kind of approach, where timing and stability of the music (and the digital clock) are important, using a hardware mixer like the DM with this capability is an exceptional choice.
 
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Interesting write up @MickiKaufman. Optical ADAT, AES-EBU would probably be the best way without a native card. Regarding my 32 channel digital console (another brand) I am experiencing 250 nanosecond latency to/from my Dante Audio Network with the internal expansion card (with a Brooklyn II Dante card) installed. If it were possible to get a Dante expansion card made for the DM series that would go a long way to keeping those consoles in service. I bet many DM owners would buy one too.
 
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NICE!

agreed re the amazingness a digital networked audio card can bring - note the cobranet does 16x16 - if an inexpensive cobranet to Dante converter can be had, that card would go a long way, but costly and yes, want more protocols!
 
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