invest in mic pre's versus mic's

[B2RPW]

I apologize if this is slightly off topic for this forum but I'd like feedback specifically from DM32/48 users. I'm just getting up to speed on my DM 4800 > PT10 rig and while the mic pre's are reasonable I'm not getting the same great sound I've heard when recording through outboard gear. So I'm considering investing in a few mic pre's specifically for vocals and guitars. But my mic cabinet is only a modest collection of lower priced large diaphram condensers (rode NT 1000, Baby Blue, Sterling Audio ST 77), some of the usual dynamics and the standard audix drum mic collection. this makes me wonder if buying outboard mic pre's before investing in better mics is like "putting lipstick on a pig".

so my question to you is would I be better off investing the money I plan to spend on mic pre's on better mics or will I get more for my money adding some better mic pre's in front of my existing mics?

the mic pre I am considering is a focusrite MKII or a stereo tube mic pre/compressor for a bit more. I can't spend much more than US$1000.

What do you think? Buy better mics and stick with the dm4800 pres, buy an outobard mic pre/compressor to use with my existing mics, or forget hardware and invest in better plugins that serve the same purpose?

 

[captdan]

Difficult questions to answer.

I'm a big believer in good quality mikes; afterall, that's where the 'fat hits the frying pan' first. I also adhere to the concept that a mike is only so good as the environment it operates in, and the skill of those providing the performance. A poor sounding room inhibits quality to the extent it needs to be eliminated from the equation. Hence, close miking becomes the primary methodology, obviating distance miking and other techniques which bring the room into the mix.

Mike pres - particularly boutique and 'valve' types - offer increased sonic pallets; anything other than 'straight wire, (which is essentially what the DM's preamps offer), is a function of 'color,' or as an enhancement tool for particular voices and intrument sources. The downside, of course, is - if it's printed onto the track - it stays on the track. If that approach proves inopportune at final mixdown, it presents a challenge to remove or re-track.

Which brings this to the issue of plugins: are they as good as 'the real thing?' That depends; the one major advantage they offer is nondestructive application: you can bypass, adjust, or abandon at anytime from tracking to mixdown without affecting the raw material in any substantial way. That's a huge plus, further enhanced by the fact your DM didn't 'color' the signal to begin with.

Focusrite makes some nice stuff, so if it's color you seek, the MKII is a good choice. However, the mikes you currently own aren't bad instruments in their own right. Perhaps the 'better sound' you seek is a matter of using them to better advantage, experiementing with alternate EQ/compression curves, and taking a closer look at your room.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head. YMMV.

CaptDan

 

[B2RPW]

Sorry I've been slow to reply, life getting in the way of my forum use...

Anyway, all good points and I appreciate the thoughtful reply. My space is a well designed, good sounding live room large enough to comfortably track about 6 players including full drum kit. It has pro acoustic treatments, no parallel walls, a floated floor and acoustically decoupled walls, typical room with a room. As far as my engineering technique goes, that's an endless path and you raise a good point that with more experimentation and experience with my existing setup I can always get better results. That's true and because I'm closer to the beginning than the end of my journey I do spend a lot of time experimenting with mic placement, different mics and various settings on the board although I have a long way to go to master compression and eq. At the moment I aim for using as little of each as possible, especially eq. Also I primarily use close micing to reduce bleed and phase issues with the exception being drum overhead mics and some overdubs.

But I want to find a fast forward button, if you will. And I actually like the idea of committing sounds, especially the idea of a good mic pre on a vocal, acoustic guitar or drum mic. So I may just start there and see where it leads me.

Anyone else have a thought here?

 

[Muziekschuur]

The micpre's from the Tascam do not colour. If you insert something like and LA2A on a decent microphone you will hear a familiar sound. A Couple of 1176's will give you (another) similar experience.

Other microphones like the Audio Technica AE2500 (wich combines two microphones) on kick and guitar cabs (Metallica) gives special sounds..

The EV-RE20 is another special sound.

Below 1000...... eh.... JDK audio compressor... Elysia Xpressor (a new sound)...
The Drawmer 1968 recently has become more affordable and is a very interesting compressor.

I am not a fan of the focusrite stuff.

If you want special mic preamps or compressors wich will give your room an edge I'd recommend the Spectra-sonics stuff:

http://spectra-sonics.com/Products

They are affordable though deliver the goods...

 

[B2RPW]

So, all other factors being equal, do you think I'm better off investing in better mics and sticking with the dm4800 pre's or running my existing mics through an outboard pre and/or compressor?

BTW the reason I looked into the focusrite was because its also an A/D converter and lets me use the s/pdif input on the board. I thought that was an attractive way to get another 8 inputs. But to be honest I haven't actually heard it live yet, only through clips on line.

Thanks for the recommendations and opinions.

 

[Muziekschuur]

Well,

In my room I'd have a tube amp on bass. Or a tube DI like the A-designs RED-DI.
I'd have double microphones on kick or the AE2500 from Audio Technica
Some coloured analog compressors so the singer can pick a colour. And if he is raiding the microphone, I'd let him have a go at a RE-20 or SM7.

I'd use a room microphone to get a good roomy sound on the drumkit.

I'd get some nice itb verbs or out the box verbs (what ever my taste would be (I like the lex pcm soft verbs). I'd do all that before I would get other mic pre's.

But I am not you. So invest wisely.

You can try this:
http://www.electroharmonix.com/products/12ay7-mic-pre

And see if it will do the trick for you...

 

[Will Miho]

Of course anything Manley or Cranesong would expand your color palate considerably! A Voxbox or Massive Passive, or even one of those Avalon micpre/eq all in ones maybe for tracking. I find it's more the "iron", the transformers in gear that gives you that classic console sound. Tubes make things glassy, but that's not for everything and they are non-linear and often tend to mush out below 100hz. But transformers, big rolls of copper wire make things interesting, when you want meat for drums or guitar or something.
Or a Metric Halo 2882 (around $1650) has 8 interesting micpres you could lightpipe into your DM4800, has better converters and a better summing bus, and suite of internal plug ins of which "Character" is of special note (it emulates various classic analog devices very very well.) The 2882 with it's app is like having a little outboard console for tracking, and you could set it up as an outboard effects box over the 8 channels of litepipe for mixing too.

 

[Will Miho]

BTW, it's often the combination of micpre and mic. An SM58 through a transformered micpre can sound killer, where a Neumann U87 through an "input balanced" micpre like Mackie's sound pretty tame. The U87 was designed to interface with transformered micpres, and they load "input balanced" gear in a not optimal way.

 

[Muziekschuur]

The Electro Harmonix black finger is a nice compressor wich gives some colour with tubes and transformer and will fit your budget. An FMR Audio compressor could bring further colour "before going to tape". There is allways bigger better. But this will give you an impression of what higher end gear will bring you.

If this could help you. Further investment in a 500 rack and dedicated microphones could help. In the end it all has to do with tailormade solutions...

Some DPA 4090's microphones can bring you the AIR band.... There are other ways to get there too. In the end it really comes down to talent and skill.

 

[captdan]

I have a love-hate relationship with my FMR gear. The RNC is an excellent little compressor, but I rarely use it for more than subtle transient taming. I just don't like the more radical settings; the 'squash' character isn't much to my liking - particularly on guitar.

The RNMP is a great little preamp, but - to my ears - it performs virtually the same as the DM's pres - with, perhaps, a little more 'openess' in the higher gain region.
I use it with my AEA ribbon, and it performs well enough.

I was among the first few hundred people to purchase an RNMP when it was introduced; I was compelled by Lon McQuilken's ('Mr FMR') claim it would behave like a 'classic RCA preamp.'

After 10 years, I'm still mulling that one over.

CaptDan

 

[Muziekschuur]

I agree. But on vocals it is nice. On the two bus it works. The fun part is that they have more compressors nowadays...

My main thing about this is, when the signal has been written to ones and zeroes you can do all things to it. But that being said. It usually is important to make the musicians feel comfortable and creative. And if they like a certain sound on their headphones they will excell. Wich is the whole point of capturing their performance in the first place.

I am fan of having a few items that excell and lotsa mainstream surrounding that. The Tascam has parametric eq's. And those can do anything. It will take a lifetime before you'll be finished with getting to know their power...

My DM24 has antares microphone modelling. Together with an AKG 3000 microphone it can do magic... But if you get the LA2A it will deliver too. And other tools on other sources too... But getting the entire recept to a brilliant level.... It's all about the CHEF....

 

[captdan]

But on vocals it is nice. On the two bus it works. The fun part is that they have more compressors nowadays...

The PBC 6-A looks intriguing, but there's no info at FMR at the moment. Nice to see FMR trying out some different 'cabinet' colors. It's been a standing joke that the FMR White imparts a hospital-like sterility to the proceedings. But the proof is in the guts, not the lipstick.

The Leveling Amp is interesting as well; some years ago an internet/recording acquaintance tried one out. He didn't think it added much to his bag of tricks so he sold it. But he's been avoiding any type of compression before the ADC these days. To each his own, though I don't agree with that approach in all cases.

The Tascam has parametric eq's. And those can do anything. It will take a lifetime before you'll be finished with getting to know their power...

Incredible tools I never get tired of using.

It's all about the CHEF..

Yes it is.

By the way, McQuilken's name is Mark - not 'Lon.' Sorry 'bout that.

CaptDan

 

[B2RPW]

Its funny how quickly your priorities change. All the money I planned to spend on some shiny new equipment is now going to tech support just to get my system running again after an OS upgrade. How frustrating.

 

[captdan]

Stay tuned; I'll try to help later today with the Ptools issue you're having.

CaptDan

 

[B2RPW]

Stay tuned; I'll try to help later today with the Ptools issue you're having.

CaptDan

That is so kind but I've had a lot of progress since last night. I'll update my other thread and then if you happen to know a solution for the last part of my issue I'd hugely appreciate any help you can give.

 

[salty james]

Learning a group of mics will getting you deeper into understanding engineering. Also the mic has about, and this literal, 50+ times affect on the sound.
The different sound you get from a ribbon (and all variations in the ribbon world included) and a 57 and a 414 is hundreds of times different from simply using different preamps and these differences MUST be learned. This takes time and experience.
I wish I would of started with mikes, but I got it backwards..
damn internet..

 

[B2RPW]

Learning a group of mics will getting you deeper into understanding engineering. Also the mic has about, and this literal, 50+ times affect on the sound.
The different sound you get from a ribbon (and all variations in the ribbon world included) and a 57 and a 414 is hundreds of times different from simply using different preamps and these differences MUST be learned. This takes time and experience.
I wish I would of started with mikes, but I got it backwards..
damn internet..

Its really amazing what a difference mic placement makes, especially with guitar amps and drums. I'm planning to due to shootout testing next week and I'll post my results to see if everyone hears it as I do.