Model 12 windows driver flaw. Sound in/out frustration

[Xeno]

Hey all,

I am a long time reader of this forum and I know complaining on my first post is not great but I believe it demonstrate my love/hate relationship with the Tascam Model 12.Everything I am gonna share here is my personnal experience I might have completely fool myself and anyone willing to prove me wrong is more than welcome (trust me I have tried so much thing i'll be happy to found solution).

TL;DR : I am happy with it but Tascam Model 12 should not be advertised as an 10 input/12 output for windows as the 'default driver' in USB usage do not permit it (only 2 main output) for all application as it does for Linux and Mac.

This is going to be a long thread containing a lot of elements. I have read countless threads on internet watch youtube video and so on.

That being said, for the context : I am not a sound engineer got few years of DAW enthousiast and musician hobbiest.

The GOOD:
One year and an half ago decided to gift myself this little one after looking on other similar model and for me the keyseller was 10in/12out autonomous/computer interface connectivity.
Just perfect for my need:
Enough input for drums, a mic, a friend with a guitar without unplugging anything, dual monitor. FX and other capabilities were just sugar on cake as I never had access to that before.
We can record autonomously or in a daw (Ardour on Linux) and apply effect. I even lent it for live performance / music of small venue.
Expensive for my usage/competence/skills but I was massively happy with it and I keep discovering functions every day (over dub, midi control, etc etc) until ...

The BAD:
Lately I have attempted to switch the model 12 on windows as it is my main 'job' computer.
My needs were simple:
- input as much program I want to control them (not talking about daw) but discord, spotify, MS Teams and a bunch of working stuff
- output a sub mix of my mic and mix it with anything else (video, music, drum) to send it directly in discord or any other collaborative tools (for work) and streaming server (jamulus for example)

For a long time I was not able to do anything else than input on line 1/2 and output the MAIN mix trough usb.
Thanks to this forum and some youtube link (@mrshowboat you are the MVP here). I made it using ASIO Link pro (a third application which we are very lucky to have as it might be the only one we can use for it) but there is still problem doing that.

Which is why I say Tascam should not advertise it a 10/12 for PC as the driver is simply not made for it on Windows. I know this is also related to how windows work but until you read and undertsand the manual (without the mixer at hand) it is difficult to get it. And many video show how it works with a daw (which is another kind of monster) so hey ! it should not be that hard on native Windows but damn it is !
Please Tascam, you are pushing new firmware for streamer/obs related stuff which is great but can we have a complete driver that gave native 10/12 in/out on windows.

The UGLY
My Audio Technica 2020 sound great in any other case(record, daw, mixer monitor, control room, etc) but output using ASIO Link pro out Mix the signal is extremely low. I had to push gain almost to the top (hardware and software) to have my friend/coworker able to here me on discord/Zoom and the sound quality is almost as bad as a 5€ computer microphone (which is normal as the Mic clip with that much gain)
Yes I do send my MIC post Comp&EQ, I believe it is just because from what I have read the signal is send -20db on USB which is just not enough for common windows application. (and yes I tested it before the tips I am giving below)

TIPS / POTENTIAL SOLUTION

TIPS:
@mrshowboat: to overlook the problem of loosing the fader when output to ASIO here is what I do. I use the sub mix and connect it (using TRS cable) back to a stereo input engage 'inst', push gain and I can send the signal back to an ASIO Mix Out that contain every output.
Problem of this is you loose one input and get a risk of loopback if you engage any of the main/sub button but you can use all fader of each input and use the sub one as a 'global' out fader including the 'mute' capability.

POTENTIAL SOLUTION:
I might go down to the rabbit hole of 'multi ASIO Link Pro client' and execute a carla instance to apply Gain on desired ASIO Mix out to boost the signal and see if it helps but already giving the stability of ASIO on windows, I am afraid this might become very complicated.

I might also try a combination of JackQtl and ASIO Linkpro to send back the ASIO signal in the WDM Driver and see what is the result (yes i know this is a long shot). And yes, this also complicated.

Lastly I am asking myself if an additionnal audio interface might just not be easier, input sub mix and main mix to a simple 2x2 usb audio interface which will be just admitting defeat and introducing even more signal latency and potential problem. Without mentionning loosing a bunch of feature/output.

If you are here, first thank you for reading me and if you see any mistake, solution to the problem feel free to comment below !

 

[AltTuning]

I'm generally quite happy with the Model 12 -- I'm in the process of re-mixing one of my first recordings with it in Reaper and I have to say it took me quite a while to get it to where I liked it as much as the sound I got from the mix I did on the board using built-in effects. Of course of the key things I can do much easier in the DAW is fix my mistakes without having to try to punch-in and out, matching everything up seamlessly.

Overall workflow was pretty good for me too and I'm looking forward to using it for a live performance when we get back to doing those sorts of things -- especially being able to just arm some tracks, hit record and then having a multi-track recording to mix later -- maybe matching it up to a video someone took on their phone.

The place I'm struggling a bit with is using it as an audio interface. Something thing are great -- I love being able to sweep the mids on my mic to find my computer fan and notch it out a bit for Zoom calls, or use the compressor to even out the volume of the remote callers -- things that would add latency and complexity by doing it in software.

The main challenges are routing audio to/from the mixer and a two glitches -- one of which was fortunately fixed by firmware 1.23. I tested out ASIO Link Pro and like the flexibility it adds of being able to route different applications to different channel strips, but generally speaking I'm using the M12 without it letting the Windows audio all go to strips 1 & 2 and putting the mixer in stereo mix mode. I wish there was a way to pick up the AUX buses or SUB bus in Windows, but AFAIK there isn't. I suppose if I'm willing to give up a channel I could do what you're saying and loop one of those outputs back into an input -- but that would only work with the ASIO drivers (or in combo with ASIO Link Pro).

I haven't had the gain issue you're having, but using the stereo mix primarily for going back to Windows gives me some extra boost from the faders if I need it. The lowest-gain inputs I'm using is an SM58 and a lapsteel guitar both going straight into the M12 -- a preamp or active DI would help with those...

Have you had any of the audio glitch "chirps" or "squeaks" when sending audio from the computer to the M12? I've got some better USB cables on the way I'm hoping will help if there's any RF noise causing those for me...

Good luck and thanks for sharing your experiences. I find it helpful to know when an issue I have is just a quark of the M12 and not necessarily something I'm doing or a defect in my particular unit.

 

[Stephan Morrison]

Yup Tascam update that Windows firmware please! Mac gives the option to route audio interface input to something other than Ch 1 and 2... argggh

 

[-mjk-]

Mac is a different operating system with different capabilities. WDM drivers are what they are. Professional audio drivers are all ASIO.

 

[Xeno]

Just few feedbacks, didn't have a lot of time to experiment unfortunately.

Updating the firmware to 1.23 greatly helped stability.

On the gain issue:
Having the 'inst' switch on or off provide weird behavior. Having it on really reduce the gain but sometimes when off I just loose entirely the signal in the ASIO Driver

Multiple ASIO Link pro tool really destroy the latency as it is already introduce by the 'loopback hack' of having the sub return back to a strip.

Discord is in fact a 'monster' of itself and should not be used to debug sound issue. To much issue with there codec, plugin etc etc …

AltTunning:
I do have crack and so on for time to time but this is due I believe to my gain pushed to the max (with SIG green obviously). Having an active DI is a solution yes but I want to keep the setup as tiny as possible. Maybe a smaller XLR could also help.
The USB cable was not really the issue, having it going near power cord was an issue. Your cable need to pass far away from them.
For information, I use usb-c to usb-c (I have one on my motherboard) give the best result I believe.

-Mjk- :
I agree with you I do not ask for WDM driver as they are c*** but even the ASIO driver for windows are poorly featured. In other brand which I will not name they provide you in the driver configuration capabilities to route, redirect etc ....
In the tascam one you have software verison, firmware and buffer. Simpel and efficient but they could do more.

Xeno

 

[mrshowboat]

Regarding the windows driver limitations, I've seen a few requests by a few people (on the "Tascam Model 12, 16 and 24 Owners" fb group asking for an update on the windows driver. The Tascam representative said it was the limitation of "Windows" and not the driver but he'll suggest it, I'm assuming to the people who does the programming. I guess there isn't enough people making enough noise let alone streaming with the M12 to make this a high priority.

So let's make some noise through their very limited contact channels!

 

[madem]

From TASCAM regarding this issue...

"We are sorry, but still are unable able to reproduce this issue, although we and R&D tried to reproduce it on all available PC's available.
We would therefore like to ask if you would instruct all the users on the Tascam forum who are reporting the same phenomenon to send a post to: audio-support@teac.de
providing all the relevant details about how and when this issue occurs, what Apps are running in parallel, what hardware is used, what CPU, what mainboard (if known) what USB Chipset, is there anything else connected via USB,…
We will then study all the collated information with our R&D team,"

 

[Xeno]

Hi,
I'll be happy to send these details but could you exactly point the issue they are mentionning as we are mentionning few of them there and I don't want this to become counter productive !

Thank you.