Model 24 WAV files too quiet on PC

[btucker]

Hello all. I run sound for a small theater company and we have a model 24 board which has been awesome so far. We typically just run live sound and output to speakers and it's pretty simple to run. During the pandemic, however, we decided to put together a "a radio show" so as to not have crowds. We are going to be recording several scenes which I will then turn into one long show. I've figured out how to use the FX options and how to record and it works really well. The issue I'm having is that when I play the WAV files from the SD card on my PC, they are really quiet. I did some research before posting and understand that you have to have the inputs all turned way up and also the gain knobs on the mics. It is still very quiet on play back on the PC. I can turn the gain up on the program I'm using to make it louder but I then get a lot of back ground noise.

Obviously, I am very new to this and did make an attempt to find the answer before asking as I know how it is to answer the same questions over and over. I appreciate any help I can get to point out what I'm missing.

 

[singaiya]

Unfortunately I don't think you're missing anything. In my experience the Model 24 recordings are low and I don't use it for mixes, I only use it for recording. After my recordings are done, I copy the files to the PC for mixing and use a limiter plugin to bring the volume up to a "real world" level.

It would be great if the Model 24 had a limiter built in so it could be used to mix down with a competitive volume, without needing a PC.

 

[btucker]

Thanks for answering!! That's what I was afraid of. I am using a PC for mixing and have just been playing with Audacity for now. I can bring the gain up on Audacity to get the volume up but it also increases the back ground noise/fuzz. Do you have a recommendation for a limiter/mixing program that doesn't break the bank that I can clean up the noise a bit?

 

[singaiya]

You can try one of the free limiter plugins, here are some options:
https://www.kvraudio.com/plugins/free/limiter/best-match

If you still hear noise, it might be something else going on. Maybe you have really low output microphones? In which case you could try using a condenser mic. Or you could try a mic booster like the Klark Teknik CT which is $30.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._ct_1_compact_dynamic_in_line_microphone.html

 

[Mark Richards]

The Model 24 is an analog device. The stereo meters are analog VU (level averaging).

However, when you record using the Model 24 MTR (1~22) or the 2-Track stereo recorder (23/24), the analog signal is converted to digital and recorded at -20 dBFS. That's why your recordings are so quiet when played back in the computer.

The typical way to address this is to work the MTR tracks in a D.A.W., create the final stereo mix in the D.A.W., then normalize the stereo mix to bring the level near or to 0 dBFS.

However, if your MTR tracks have a wide dynamic range, your average to peak level will be high, and since normalize works by raising the level based on peak, not average, level, normalizing won't have as big an impact. There's a post here in the DP-24/32 forum that goes into detail about this.

• Applying a limiter or compressor to individual tracks, or to the stereo master, can help bring up average to peak level when you mix down to the stereo master, at the cost of reducing overall dynamic range.
• Using compression will also raise up any background noise present in the track or stereo mix.
• Using a limiter improperly can cut off transients (the quickly occurring sounds that add distinction to instruments and vocals), reducing the overall quality of the sound.

The Model 24 mic pre-amps and following circuitry are very quiet. If raising the level in your D.A.W. reveals background noise or distortion, then you have a gain staging issue that starts with mic placement, quality of the mics, cable length, ambient room noise, etc.

BTW, if you're using a D.A.W. take a look at Harrison Console's Mixbus6. It may still be on sale on their website for $19US. Highly recommend it (no affiliation).

 

[btucker]

I appreciate the info from both of you. As I said, I am really new so I'll have to look up what D.A.W is and play around with that.

 

[singaiya]

normalize works by raising the level based on peak, not average, level, normalizing won't have as big an impact.

Yes. This is where a limiter (or compressor/limiter combo) will help.

btucker, Audacity is a DAW (digital audio workstation).

 

[singaiya]

@btucker, I reread your post and thought more about it. I would guess that for a small theater performance, things work ok live since the audience is there to hear the actors. For recording you will probably need a different approach to micing them, maybe even different mics. What mics are you using, and how far are they from the actors? The source of your noise could be resulting from mics being too far away to provide a clean signal. Start by ensuring they are close enough.

 

[btucker]

Right now I have the setup at home to figure this all out before we actually do a show run through. I've been using my Iphone paired with the board for YouTube karaoke and my wife singing along on a Peavey PVi100 handheld for practice. When we do the show, we will be using Shure wireless rigs. I can't remember the model just yet. I'm getting the same low volume from the music off the phone as the mic. When I listen to the recording on the PC they are both on par with each other volume wise....just both too low. I'm going to check out the limiter plug in you mentioned. Like I said, Audacity allows me to turn up the volume, I just need to get rid of the noise. I didn't really get to play with it today but I'll pick it up again tomorrow. I appreciate the help.

 

[btucker]

I downloaded the limiter plugin to Audacity and it worked like a charm. I was then able to isolate and clean up the noise. we're going to do a test recording with the wireless mics tonight but I'm pretty confident that I can get this pulled off now. Thanks a ton for all of the help and info!!!

 

[singaiya]

Great, glad to hear that it worked!

 

[-mjk-]

I downloaded the limiter plugin to Audacity and it worked like a charm. I was then able to isolate and clean up the noise. we're going to do a test recording with the wireless mics tonight but I'm pretty confident that I can get this pulled off now. Thanks a ton for all of the help and info!!!

Investing in a good suite of Mastering tools will be a huge help in the long run.

 

[btucker]

I am sure. I didn't want to throw too much of the theatre's/my money at this just yet. We're hoping to get back to doing live shows in the not too distant future but that depends on how long this pandemic drags out. We're doing the recorded "radio show" so everyone can keep their distance from each other while still getting to do a show.

 

[Troy]

Great for my similar problem as well. How do you use a Limiter Plug In? Where do you apply it?

 

[-mjk-]

Typically limiters are added at the end of the chain. You may want what is called a "maximizer" at the end of your chain instead of, or in addition to a limiter. It depends on the program and the outcome you need.

 

[BazzBass]

but is there a valid reason WHY the Model24 records so low? a lot of extra things to do just for it to sound acceptable imho

 

[deepsignal]

I just figured this was it providing ample headroom so you are less likely to clip. I’ve tracked with it dozens of times and never clipped. I export the tracks to my DAW so I can just mix and master the tracks there.