jamsire
Soundaholic
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More "set-up snapshots?"
- Thread starter rqstudio
- Start date
Basically, it would be a 128-CH MADI PCIe interface in a Thunderbolt PCIe chassis with 2-UAD OCTO PCIe cards, connected to a new Mac Pro along with 2 or 3 4k display monitors attached and a Thunderbolt HD or SSD.
From the MADI interface to MADI converters to outboard to the DM-4800 back to the MADI interface. MADI converters would be MADI to ADAT, MADI to TDIF, MADI to AES, and perhaps MADI to Analog, Analog to MADI. The DM-4800 would be just be used as an insert mixer to the MADI chain. The DM could also still be used as a control surface via MIDI for times when I may just need or desire to just stay ITB.
Who are you to say how many channels should used in what type situation? Just because one has or desires something like 128-ch capability, doesn't mean one must use or need to use that capability for every single song or for every project, and yet one still can be grateful that the capability exists for those times when it is desired or needed. For those of that us that still do and prefer to do most of their mixing out of the box in a hybrid setup with a butt load of outboard, those channels are required and appreciated. YMMV...
Thank goodness one person's opinion doesn't impose limitations on another person's vision..... whilst I love the music and sound of the 60s and 70s I don't want to be stuck with the technology limitations (and cost) of the time. Excellent apps like Reaper provide unlimited track count and there's no reason not to leverage them.
for e.g. with 12 mics on kit + 3 room mics there's nearly half of your 32-track count gone. Add bass, piano, vibes, marimba, xyl, bells, chimes, violin, strings, synth, female bkg vcls, male bkg vcls, horns, more horns.... oh dear... we've got 43 tracks now and still don't have the lead vocals...... yes I could submix, yes I could buss - no, I don't want to.
for e.g. with 12 mics on kit + 3 room mics there's nearly half of your 32-track count gone. Add bass, piano, vibes, marimba, xyl, bells, chimes, violin, strings, synth, female bkg vcls, male bkg vcls, horns, more horns.... oh dear... we've got 43 tracks now and still don't have the lead vocals...... yes I could submix, yes I could buss - no, I don't want to.
jamsire
Soundaholic
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- DM4800 388-8 22-2
Honestly guys - I'm not that confrontational.
Who am I to say? Nobody special at all.
I teach this stuff for a living day in and day out. All I hear is this talk about I need more channel inputs for this and that. So, I wish you well in your ever increasing track count. As a guitarist with so many different guitars for different purposes, I understand.
I just like my current DM4800 configuration of 88 at the ready inputs, 32 audio tracks to and from my PC, mastered to 2-track digital, to be sold for $.99-$1.29 and listened to on Beats ear buds/ headphones. And I too do hybrid mixing - out the box, Yeeeeup!
Who am I to say? Nobody special at all.
I teach this stuff for a living day in and day out. All I hear is this talk about I need more channel inputs for this and that. So, I wish you well in your ever increasing track count. As a guitarist with so many different guitars for different purposes, I understand.
I just like my current DM4800 configuration of 88 at the ready inputs, 32 audio tracks to and from my PC, mastered to 2-track digital, to be sold for $.99-$1.29 and listened to on Beats ear buds/ headphones. And I too do hybrid mixing - out the box, Yeeeeup!
When you were talking about I/O cards I assumed you were talking about "recording tracks." Lots of DAWs have 128 channels to play with but that's a different story. Again I never use more than 20 and personally I think mixing anymore than that is just insane.
I "TRY" to keep it to a basic 24-CH audio tracks or less. But I think some of you here may have some misunderstood confusion in the differences between almost endless DAW Audio Tracks, Raw audio tracks in the DAW project needing to be mixed, Mixer Channels and Driver Interface (ASIO) channels.
It isn't really about raw audio channel count. Many more tracks & channels in addition to the basic raw audio tracks get used and are often required. Those 24-CH raw audio tracks are just the starting point to a modern mix. If you desire to use outboard as well as do things like layer guitars, have a Guitar Buss, and/or Drum Buss, and/or Keys Buss and/or are using various parallel buss's on Guitar, Drums, Vocals, Keys, & Effects, you can easily use up both your mixer channels and your Driver I/O channel count rather quickly where a limit of 32-CH Driver I/O is just simply not enough.
The bigger point of all this is that the DM-4800 is a 64-CH Mixer and yet it only provides 32-Driver channels. While disappointed, I understand the the technical limitations of its design as this is most likely due to being able to provide a stable maximum of 32-CH with the FW400 limitation of the IFFW card.
It isn't really about raw audio channel count. Many more tracks & channels in addition to the basic raw audio tracks get used and are often required. Those 24-CH raw audio tracks are just the starting point to a modern mix. If you desire to use outboard as well as do things like layer guitars, have a Guitar Buss, and/or Drum Buss, and/or Keys Buss and/or are using various parallel buss's on Guitar, Drums, Vocals, Keys, & Effects, you can easily use up both your mixer channels and your Driver I/O channel count rather quickly where a limit of 32-CH Driver I/O is just simply not enough.
The bigger point of all this is that the DM-4800 is a 64-CH Mixer and yet it only provides 32-Driver channels. While disappointed, I understand the the technical limitations of its design as this is most likely due to being able to provide a stable maximum of 32-CH with the FW400 limitation of the IFFW card.
Raw audio tracks, Driver channels? Now I think you're the one thats confused! You are mis-using the terms tracks and channels. These were simple old school terms when things were limited but still hold true.
Nope, most definitely not confused in any way. If one understands all the separate components, it's pretty clear. The IFFW card which is simply an audio interface with it's specific driver that only provides 32-ASIO channels to the DM-4800 of which you can route to any of the 64-mixer channels of the DM-4800.
I will make it simple. Regardless of how many raw audio tracks are in a DAW project that are assigned to DAW channels, you can only assign DAW channels to 1 of 32-Driver ASIO channels. Those 32-Driver ASIO channels can be routed to any of the 64-Mixer channels of the DM-4800.
The norm would be one mono audio track assigned to one DAW channel assigned to one ASIO channel routed to one DM Mixer channel. But you could also have 4-audio tracks all assigned to one DAW channel (such as via a send buss) assigned to one ASIO channel routed to one mixer channel.
As an example:
You might have 100+ audio tracks in a DAW project but only intend to use and assign 40 of those audio tracks to either Mono or Stereo DAW channels you intend to use for mixing. You then need to decide which or how many of those 40-DAW channels are assigned to the available 32-Driver ASIO channels that then would be routed to any of the available 64-mixer channels of DM-4800.
I will make it simple. Regardless of how many raw audio tracks are in a DAW project that are assigned to DAW channels, you can only assign DAW channels to 1 of 32-Driver ASIO channels. Those 32-Driver ASIO channels can be routed to any of the 64-Mixer channels of the DM-4800.
The norm would be one mono audio track assigned to one DAW channel assigned to one ASIO channel routed to one DM Mixer channel. But you could also have 4-audio tracks all assigned to one DAW channel (such as via a send buss) assigned to one ASIO channel routed to one mixer channel.
As an example:
You might have 100+ audio tracks in a DAW project but only intend to use and assign 40 of those audio tracks to either Mono or Stereo DAW channels you intend to use for mixing. You then need to decide which or how many of those 40-DAW channels are assigned to the available 32-Driver ASIO channels that then would be routed to any of the available 64-mixer channels of DM-4800.
captdan
In Memoriam
Modern audio production equipment, techniques and demands has and continues to move on
Indeed they have. It's similar to Parkinson's Law: "Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.' Substitute 'demands' for 'work, and 'tracks' for time.
I think some of this stems from the way a lot of rock and pop records have been produced the past 20 years. Bands and producers don't always have a clear concept before walking into the studio; songs tend to develop by trial and error and that often means saving every damn track 'just in case.' Simply put, if the tools are there, they'll be utilized whether necessary or not. "Hey! We have 68 more tracks! Let's do 8 different versions and decide later!"
Some of the biggest movie scores were done onto 24 channels - many more on 32 and 48. Then again, if 100 tracks had been viable in 1968, I'm sure Sir George & The Beats (not to mention countless others) would have used them.
Whatever works. Personally speaking, in 4 years with my DM, I've never exceeded 30 tracks, with 26 being the norm. And I don't feel at all hindered - at least not nearly as much as I did with my previous system.
But I am not you; nor vice versa.
CaptDan
Indeed they have. It's similar to Parkinson's Law: "Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.' Substitute 'demands' for 'work, and 'tracks' for time.
I think some of this stems from the way a lot of rock and pop records have been produced the past 20 years. Bands and producers don't always have a clear concept before walking into the studio; songs tend to develop by trial and error and that often means saving every damn track 'just in case.' Simply put, if the tools are there, they'll be utilized whether necessary or not. "Hey! We have 68 more tracks! Let's do 8 different versions and decide later!"
Some of the biggest movie scores were done onto 24 channels - many more on 32 and 48. Then again, if 100 tracks had been viable in 1968, I'm sure Sir George & The Beats (not to mention countless others) would have used them.
Whatever works. Personally speaking, in 4 years with my DM, I've never exceeded 30 tracks, with 26 being the norm. And I don't feel at all hindered - at least not nearly as much as I did with my previous system.
But I am not you; nor vice versa.
CaptDan
The Capt's stuff sounds good. Real good. And I tend to work in the same manner - artist/producer, playing the parts myself, building an arrangment and pre-mixing as I go - so for me 24 tracks is a lot.
I'm not producing superpop mixes where you need two tracks just for the triangle. 12 mics on a drum kit +3 room mics? Not me. That way lies madness. A good drummer needs 4, tops. I'm not spending a day fixing phase relationships and EQing toms and another day per tune mixing a drum kit just to fix a drummer who can't balance his playing.
And I can't hear the difference between summing string parts ITB or doing it OTB. I may have a lot of track in the DAW, but I don't have any problem mixing all the strings down to a stereo pair in the DM. Hybrid mixing turns your DM into a 32-buss console.
So, yeah, whatever works for you, but don't confuse a high track count with best practices or with vision.
I'm not producing superpop mixes where you need two tracks just for the triangle. 12 mics on a drum kit +3 room mics? Not me. That way lies madness. A good drummer needs 4, tops. I'm not spending a day fixing phase relationships and EQing toms and another day per tune mixing a drum kit just to fix a drummer who can't balance his playing.
And I can't hear the difference between summing string parts ITB or doing it OTB. I may have a lot of track in the DAW, but I don't have any problem mixing all the strings down to a stereo pair in the DM. Hybrid mixing turns your DM into a 32-buss console.
So, yeah, whatever works for you, but don't confuse a high track count with best practices or with vision.
jamsire
Soundaholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2012
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- Karma
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- Gear owned
- DM4800 388-8 22-2
I look at needing a lot of tracks at my disposal like going to a buffet - just because all that food is there, doesn't mean you have to eat all. Stomach can only handle but so much.
Well, I can say this - there are NO standalone DIGITAL MIXERS with more than 32 digital I/O's. You need to go completely external from your computer into other boxes to get more track. That being said - we can be talking about any digital mixer on the market that does not allow more than 32 audio I/O to and from the software.
I too can not tell if a drum kit was bussed or singled out into tracks, but I can certainly hear a bad mix! Hahahaha!!
CaptDan, and Gravity Jim - interesting points of view. I will incorporate them into my classes in the fall.
Well, I can say this - there are NO standalone DIGITAL MIXERS with more than 32 digital I/O's. You need to go completely external from your computer into other boxes to get more track. That being said - we can be talking about any digital mixer on the market that does not allow more than 32 audio I/O to and from the software.
I too can not tell if a drum kit was bussed or singled out into tracks, but I can certainly hear a bad mix! Hahahaha!!
CaptDan, and Gravity Jim - interesting points of view. I will incorporate them into my classes in the fall.
captdan
In Memoriam
don't have any problem mixing all the strings down to a stereo pair in the DM
In the late 60s (concurrent with the bespoke Brit dudes), I was doing a fair amount of studio arranging sessions in an unnamed Mile High City By The Plains. At that time, there were about 3 high end studios, 2 of them with interlocked 4 track Ampexes, and a 'hi-tech' competitor who dared to install an MCI-16.
For economy's sake (union scale sessions), we'd hire only 6 'Mile-Hi' Symphony string players and layer the takes 3 or 4 passes. Even the sessions done with two sub-mixed ampexes sounded great, with little or no perceived quality loss. I think a lot of that was because of:
1. Great players
2. Well chosen, high quality mics and pres
3. Meticulous wiring and studio grounding
4. Fabulous sounding room and natural 'verb chamber
5. A seasoned engineer who knew how to make it all work seamlessly.
Everything being equal, I like to believe those things still matter - perhaps above all else.
YMMV
Etc
CaptDan
In the late 60s (concurrent with the bespoke Brit dudes), I was doing a fair amount of studio arranging sessions in an unnamed Mile High City By The Plains. At that time, there were about 3 high end studios, 2 of them with interlocked 4 track Ampexes, and a 'hi-tech' competitor who dared to install an MCI-16.
For economy's sake (union scale sessions), we'd hire only 6 'Mile-Hi' Symphony string players and layer the takes 3 or 4 passes. Even the sessions done with two sub-mixed ampexes sounded great, with little or no perceived quality loss. I think a lot of that was because of:
1. Great players
2. Well chosen, high quality mics and pres
3. Meticulous wiring and studio grounding
4. Fabulous sounding room and natural 'verb chamber
5. A seasoned engineer who knew how to make it all work seamlessly.
Everything being equal, I like to believe those things still matter - perhaps above all else.
YMMV
Etc
CaptDan
ALL RIGHTY THEN, I finally have figured out my problem. It seems the DM likes being connected to my MX-2424 via MMC instead of MX-2424. When I went out and purchased a new DM-4800 it was acting the same as the DM-3200 so I figured there was a set-up problem. Don't know why it doesn't work with the MX setting, I tried all different kinds of clocks etc. Seems to like the MMC setting with MIDI I/O to and from! (is that redundant?) Anyone looking to buy a pristine DM-3200???
So many things to respond too...... wow
Dan #37 - but I think we're generally talking DMs in dinky setups in 2014, not Neves in great rooms with EMT plates and top notch orchestras in the 4 track days - apples and oranges perhaps?
Jim #34 - yes, your preference is a minimalist mic setup for a drum kit - perhaps you're imagining a 4 or 5 piece jazz or rock kit playing "drum machine patterns" rather than a Bozzio sized monster kit playing more complex drum-based music? - it is a very different micing situation and needs to be treated accordingly. And similar to your comment - I'd say don't confuse limited track counts with smart practice....
Dan #33 - I wonder if Parkinson differentiated between effort and duration / cost and price / scope and creep? ;-) Like yourself, in my time on the DM (that we seem to agree we like so much) I've mixed ITB down to 2 channels (thence mastered to DVR similar to jamsire) and also from DAW to DM using all 32 channels (and wishing for more) plus 16 DM I/O via analog card + 12 DM I/O via aux.... and still wanted more. Overkill? Maybe, but the DM has the capability to do all these things and to reach a limiting factor which is I/O between DAW and DM.
I've raved on enough......
Dan #37 - but I think we're generally talking DMs in dinky setups in 2014, not Neves in great rooms with EMT plates and top notch orchestras in the 4 track days - apples and oranges perhaps?
Jim #34 - yes, your preference is a minimalist mic setup for a drum kit - perhaps you're imagining a 4 or 5 piece jazz or rock kit playing "drum machine patterns" rather than a Bozzio sized monster kit playing more complex drum-based music? - it is a very different micing situation and needs to be treated accordingly. And similar to your comment - I'd say don't confuse limited track counts with smart practice....
Dan #33 - I wonder if Parkinson differentiated between effort and duration / cost and price / scope and creep? ;-) Like yourself, in my time on the DM (that we seem to agree we like so much) I've mixed ITB down to 2 channels (thence mastered to DVR similar to jamsire) and also from DAW to DM using all 32 channels (and wishing for more) plus 16 DM I/O via analog card + 12 DM I/O via aux.... and still wanted more. Overkill? Maybe, but the DM has the capability to do all these things and to reach a limiting factor which is I/O between DAW and DM.
I've raved on enough......
There you again, intimating that more drums and more tracks means more difficult, more "progressive" music... So yes, you ARE confusing the two. I'll tap out now, since this discussion has become some kind of goofy pissing contest.
Well I agree with you Gravity Jim, but it really doesn't matter. However I do mic every drum, two on the snare, LOL But I was just looking for a few snapshots to make my life easier and wanted to know why my transport lights weren't lighting up. I guess I got what I was looking for although you wouldn't know that by looking at some of the post!
It's good to see the DM users still have some spunk in them. Happy mixing Ya' all.
It's good to see the DM users still have some spunk in them. Happy mixing Ya' all.
