Routing options for recording a live band

[B2RPW]

I'm still not totally satisfied that my 4800 usage methods are the most efficient or even close to best practice. And for sure I'm not using 10% of what the board is capable of doing. Bear with me for a long setup because my questions at the end will hopefully spark some good discussion.

Some pretext for those that haven't read my other posts - I use a DM4800 primarily as a live band recording and monitoring board using it as my audio interface to Protools via the FW card. It lives in a well-designed control room connected to a live room with 22 Mic inputs and a vocal iso booth with 2 mic inputs. I also have a 6 channel headphone amp connected to the aux outs so I can give my musicians up to 6 custom headphone mixes along with the stereo bus mix. I mix ITB, using the dm4800 primarily as a control surface on the remote layer.

The way I have the board configured is as follows:

Layer 1 channels 1-24 are set to M/L 1-24 as their input source, these are routed to buses 1-24 (set at unity gain) but not routed to the stereo bus. I use these strictly to set levels to feed protools. I do this by setting all the faders at unity gain then turning up the trim until dynamic peaks top out around -10 to -12 db.

Layer 2 channels 25-48 are set to M/L 1-24 as their input source (just like layer 1) but they are not routed to mono busses, just the the stereo bus. I use this layer for monitoring both in the control room and to send custom mixes to the musicians. It also lets me apply effects like reverb and compression on the signal the musicians hear without recording them.

Layer 3 I use for random things like the stereo main outs from PT, to output a click track from PT so i can feed it back to musicians, an 11 Rack that is routed to the board via AES/EBU (din2), if I hook up some outboard spdif gear, etc.

Although its working well there are some obvious shortcomings that I don't know how to address so I would appreciate some feedback.

Is there a way to send a signal to the FW card slot immediately after the trim pots pre fader? I'd like to do this so I could use the same layer for both sending signal to PT and to monitor. It would also give me a full 48 channels to track rather than only 24 today. (I know I only need 32 since that is all the FW card can handle).

Is there any way other than outboard gear to compress/limit the analog signal before in goes through the D/A converter so I don't risk overdriving the converter? I know the board has sophisticated compressors and limiters but once its in the digital realm its too late from a recording perspective and for mixing I don't need it since I'm mixing ITB using my plugins.

Is there a better way in general to approach routing that more efficient, elegant, useful, etc?

What exactly is the master fader controlling? I guess its the sum total of what I'm routing to it on layer 2. Is there a way to have it control the output from PT, for example is there a way to set up two FW slots to send the main outs from PT to the master bus?

One more - can someone please explain the direct button on the output controls? I have read that section or the manual over and over but i don't understand what it does.

Anything else I should know? but seriously, this forum has been the one useful place to get answers on the dm4800 so thank you all for contributing so much. I look forward to be able to help people here as well as I'm learning more and more. Maybe this post will spark the discussion that will do just that!

 

[Arjan P]

Is there a way to send a signal to the FW card slot immediately after the trim pots pre fader? I'd like to do this so I could use the same layer for both sending signal to PT and to monitor.

Yes, and that's exactly what you need the 'direct' button for. The 'direct' button sends the input signal 'directly' out again, to the destination you selected for it in the 'output SLOT' tab of the routing screen. On this tab, start on the right (courtesy of the captain ) and select 'all'. Now in the middle, select a set of 8 channels from the IF-FW, and on the left, fill those with the respective mic/line inputs. Done! Now on your first layer, each of the channels that you select the direct button for, will be sent to PT pre-fader. For level setting though, make sure you set the screen meters (or meterbridge) at pre-fader, otherwise you don't see what really goes into PT.

Is there any way other than outboard gear to compress/limit the analog signal before in goes through the D/A converter so I don't risk overdriving the converter?

No, I don't think there is.

What exactly is the master fader controlling? I guess its the sum total of what I'm routing to it on layer 2. Is there a way to have it control the output from PT, for example is there a way to set up two FW slots to send the main outs from PT to the master bus?

Master fader controls the stereo bus. Any channel that has the 'stereo' button selected on (above the 'direct' button) will be routed here. And ofcourse, if you send two PT channels to two DM channels, they will be included here - the master fader won't be the exclusive control for them though.

What you could do, is use one of the 3 control room source switches (next to the stereo meter) for exclusive PT output - still without the master fader though (unless in the remote layer). The top one is always 'stereo' but the other 3 can be changed. This may be something for a different topic though.. (Manual: Routing and Assignment: Monitoring)

 

[B2RPW]

That makes perfect sense, thank you. With the direct button I don't really need to use layer 1 and 2 for the same inputs. But am I losing anything? If I use the direct button can i still add effects so that they are monitored but not printed to pt?

 

[TascMan]

While I am sure Arjan is probably right, I thought the DIRECT buttons are default set to send your inputs to a corresponding buss, not the FW outputs. Sending an input directly to the FW output requires the selection of INPUT BYPASS on your output routing screen. Since you currently have your Busses sending your Post fader signal out to FW, you will need to change this so that the only signal going over FW is from the trim pot, unaffected by fader or effects.

 

[B2RPW]

While I am sure Arjan is probably right, I thought the DIRECT buttons are default set to send your inputs to a corresponding buss, not the FW outputs. Sending an input directly to the FW output requires the selection of INPUT BYPASS on your output routing screen. Since you currently have your Busses sending your Post fader signal out to FW, you will need to change this so that the only signal going over FW is from the trim pot, unaffected by fader or effects.

I'm going to do some testing tomorrow and will report back. Anyone else have thoughts on my other questions in the OP?

 

[Arjan P]

While I am sure Arjan is probably right, I thought the DIRECT buttons are default set to send your inputs to a corresponding buss, not the FW outputs. Sending an input directly to the FW output requires the selection of INPUT BYPASS on your output routing screen.

You're right about the default setting, but that's why I suggested to have that changed in the Routing screen. Input Bypass AFAIK is used to do the same but then also free the channel to a completely different input. So, let's say I have an input in mic/line1, send it to IF-FW with input bypass, and use mixer channel 1 for input mic/line15.

 

[B2RPW]

Arjan and Tascman, I'm curious how you configure your boards if you use it for the same kind of application, tracking a full band playing live routed into a DAW. Are you set up very differently than me?

 

[Arjan P]

Full band recordings are not the rule for me, but they do happen once in a while. Usually, I record layered music, mostly started by one or some instruments with vocals. My standard setup is this: I have layer 1 set up to go to Cubase, like I explained above, with the same signals going through faders and effects in use for monitoring. The returns come into layer 2, and layer 3 I use for effect returns (also external effects) and CD-player, radio etc. And that's it for my DM3200

When I have a full band (live in the studio) recording, I dedicate one setup (mixer scene) for recording and another for overdubs and mixing, since I then need more than one layer (16 channels) during recording, and certainly more than that for mixdown. So for mixdown I have 32 channels from Cubase and layer 3 for the same as mentioned earlier. Also, in such a scenario, band members tend to like their own headphone mix during recording, so I have that in the 'standard, start-from' recording scene.

 

[B2RPW]

Ok the input bypass is working as described, so I can now record my dry signal direct from the trim pots and have it unaffected by faders, processors, etc. I'm struggling a bit to get the effects working though. EQ and dynamics are easy, but for some reason I can't seem to get the two effects from Tascam and TC working. I ran out of time before I solved the problem and had to leave but next time I can get on the board I'm sure I'll be able to get past this and it should all be good.

 

[B2RPW]

Full band recordings are not the rule for me, but they do happen once in a while. Usually, I record layered music, mostly started by one or some instruments with vocals. My standard setup is this: I have layer 1 set up to go to Cubase, like I explained above, with the same signals going through faders and effects in use for monitoring. The returns come into layer 2, and layer 3 I use for effect returns (also external effects) and CD-player, radio etc. And that's it for my DM3200

When I have a full band (live in the studio) recording, I dedicate one setup (mixer scene) for recording and another for overdubs and mixing, since I then need more than one layer (16 channels) during recording, and certainly more than that for mixdown. So for mixdown I have 32 channels from Cubase and layer 3 for the same as mentioned earlier. Also, in such a scenario, band members tend to like their own headphone mix during recording, so I have that in the 'standard, start-from' recording scene.

So I take it that you mix on the board and not in Cubase? I'm just curious why? It seems that unless you have a lot of outboard processing gear or you love the effects from the mixer over what you have available through plugins I don't see the advantage, especially since using the remote layer gives the "sensation" of mixing on a board even though everything is ITB. I'm sure there are good reasons I'm just not seeing due to inexperience.

 

[captdan]

"So I take it that you mix on the board and not in Cubase? I'm just curious why?"

There are several good reasons to mix out of the box: Reducing computer CPU load on track intensive projects, ability to employ EQ, gating, efx and compression instead of - or in addition to - DAW plugins. Increased routing power, including group bussing; and, of course, utilizing the DM's powerful mix automation. To name a few.

There seems to be a widespread notion that mixing out of the box - particularly on the DM consoles - somehow causes sonic deterioration, or is less 'pure,' than an ITB approach. This, of course, is complete nonsense; if the signal is kept in the digital domain (via firewire or other digital interface), and correct gain structuring is applied throughout, there is simply no difference sonically between ITB and OTB.

Of course, each user's workflow determines which avenue to take; there is no right or wrong way if the end result is attained.

CaptDan

 

[Arjan P]

So I take it that you mix on the board and not in Cubase? I'm just curious why?

Captain Dan pretty much summed it up (thanks!), but I do also use Cubase automation and plugins, so for me it's best of both worlds doing it this way. Still having my faithful external effects is also nice, and since I record the mix back in the box again (in Wavelab) it's a clear process: Mixing is something I prepare for and not just a 'let's bounce to stereo and see how it sounds' step. Keeps things in perspective for me.

It's not so much a matter of experience I think, though my choice for a full digital board was made maybe in part due to coming from more analog setups. The same goes for the way I use Cubase, like a super multitrack recorder with benefits. BTW, Cubase used to be, and still is, my MIDI music factory. But indeed there is no wrong or right.

 

[Arjan P]

I'm struggling a bit to get the effects working though. EQ and dynamics are easy, but for some reason I can't seem to get the two effects from Tascam and TC working.

You have to realize that you control the effects on three levels: 1. Each selected channel giving an amount of 'send' level (pre- or post fader, possibly pan), 2. Each effect has its own send master fader, 3. Each effect has its return master fader. The send level in step 2 is controlled on the AUX layer, but the return master has to be assigned by you in the routing screen.

 

[B2RPW]

Ok that makes sense. My projects are not terribly complicated and I put most of my focus on recording the sounds well in the first place. Like everyone, my mixes get better each time I do them and I'm to the point where I find I can get a good outcome when I control the whole process beginning with the recording. But I very rarely have to mix someone else's stuff so I'm lucky. As I add outboard gear and use more midi I'm sure I'll use the board for more mixing for now I'm able to do what I want with Pro tools 10 and using the remote layer on the board.

 

[Will Miho]

The beauty of using input bypass and going micpre in direct to the firewire card, is when you assign the return side input of the channels from your firewire returns. Flip to returns, and all the tweaking you have done with eq, comp, reverb etc. while mixing live is still there. So you can record the rehearsal and tweak your sound further before show time from the returns, which gives you more time to get it together. When you do live broadcasts/webcasts or just recording of a show, very helpful to have the extra time.

A live sound guy might even play back tracks of the band from his laptop so he can start soundchecking a venue before the band is even there yet, or after they have left if he records the rehearsal.

Ummm -You need to assign the outputs of your internal effects to a couple of tracks on the DM4800 if you want to hear them back!