Sending to bus without EQ

[PhilippeH]

Goal is to record drums with zero latency with DM4800 and ProTools via ADAT. Each ADAT is assigned to Bus1-8. Ideally, I'd like to apply a EQ, compression and gating to each drum track for wet headphone monitoring, but I would like to send the dry signal to ProTools unaltered so I can re-EQ, re-gate and so on without being stuck with the dynamics at tracking time. Is there an elegant solution other than mirroring the inputs to two different tracks and send the dry input to ADAT while monitoring the wet inputs? I can't really do the latter because I don't gave enough unused input strips available from my 64.

 

[captdan]

Use the "Input Bypass" method to assign your ADATs directly to your source. You do this by choosing "SLOT#/ADAT#) in the Routing/OutputSLOTt [Tab 3] menu. This bypasses the DM's circuitry completely; that means no fader module will affect anything with regard to the ADAT signal being printed to Ptools.

Second, you'll assign each of those drum sources to individual MONITORING faders on the DM. For full featured channel capability, choose any 8 faders between 1 and 32. There, you can add EQ/Compression/efx which appear ONLY on the Stereo monitoring bus. Then, mute the Protools channel being printed, otherwise you'll hear delay between the recorded track and your DM monitoring channels. This is the zero latency approach, allowing NONDESTRUCTIVE effecting of signal, where no efx get printed or combined with the track.

Do a search here for details on 'Input Bypass."

CaptDan

 

[PhilippeH]

Thanks captdan. I'm away from my mixer for the next few days, so trying to resolve this on this forum. Would the Input Bypass approach need to be "hard-wired" for each input channel? I use a more flexible approach currently with Bus 1-8 (hard-wired to output ADAT 1-8) for quick assignments of any input channels to my ProTools rig via ADAT. Under your approach, I would need to do the assignment of a given strip "on the fly" meaning that if Input #9 needed to be recorded and had not been assigned before, I could no longer use the bus and would need a direct Input Bypass assignment? Stated differently, the bus is post EQ/Gates/etc and cannot be used in Input Bypass mode?
I suppose as long as I always plug my drum mics in the same exact channel inputs on the DM, I could follow your approach as it would be a one time thing.
Lastly, what do you mean by "For full featured channel capability, choose any 8 faders between 1 and 32."? Given my preferred mixer layout, I was actually planning to use channels 41-48? Are they different than any 1-32 channels?

Thanks

 

[captdan]

Update: for some reason, I thought you had a 3200. The 4800 has more 'full featured' channels - ie - those with EQ/Dynamics and Aux efx. So you can use 41-48 (which I'm not directly familiar with but assume offer the same features as those on Layers #1/2.)

The problem with bussing faders to your recording source is, everything on those channels gets printed to the tracks. If you enable the EQ, it goes along with the signal all the way to 'tape - destructively. Input Bypass does just that - it bypasses the DM altogether, patching the source input (M/Line or outboard preamp/efx chain) directly to the target recording medium. You then assign the same source input to a separate DM fader for purposes of monitoring during recording. That fader's position, nor anything else added within that module, affects nothing on the recorded signal. It can be auxed, EQ'd, and compressed while being monitored without having any bearing on the recording itself. That leaves you room to experiment with various things, all the way to the final mix, using a 'dry' signal to work with.

That way, there's zero latency because the summed combination of signals is monitored on the DM where everything arrives simultaneously without delay. If you're using ProTools 'standard' - not 'HD' with proprietary hardware - there is no means to monitor and track out of the box, while hearing the new track being recorded without a few microseconds of annoying delay. So, by splitting the signal in the DM - one side bypassed to the DAW, the other assigned to a fader for monitoring - you defeat latency altogether.

Hope that makes sense.

CaptDan

 

[PhilippeH]

Makes perfect sense, thank you. Last question, does Input Bypass still allow me to use the preamps and phantom 48v of the DM4800? I use a ProTools Digi 002 Rack via ADAT lightpipe, but no preamps via this routing. This approach will only work if I can use the preamps of the DM4800.

 

[captdan]

You can route ANYthing to ANYwhere. That means you can assign your Digi 002 directly to Ptools - bypassing both the DM's preamps and converters. In your scenario, Digi 002 provides pre amp and conversion which - if input/bypassed - can be routed to your PC/Mac/DAW in same manner I described earlier.

Here's an extremely dumbed down 'map' of both approaches:

I. Bus/Direct:

Preamp(or source)--bussed to---- -DM Fader Module [including all chosen EQ, DYNamics, and auxiliary efx)........Output Slot.........Computer.......DAW [Protools.]


2. InputBypass:

Preamp (or ADAT source)-------OutPut Slot------------Computer-----DAW (ProTools).

Now - here's Input Bypass with a split signal:

2B.
Preamp ADAT source)...OutPut Slot----Computer----DAW...DM Stereo Bus
\------DM Channel Fader Module -------- DM Stereo Bus.

As you can see in '2B' - the DM's Stereo Bus is where all summed signals are monitored simultaneously on the timeline. But the track being recorded is fed directly by the originating source - whether that be a DM pre, ADAT, SPDIF, AES/EBU or analog hardware device. That source's signal is also assigned to a fader for monitoring control (where compression and reverb can be added to aid the performer), as well as signal level mixed with selected pre recorded tracks via an Aux to the performer's headphones - without latency or destructively altering the printed recording.

There are variations on this - for example, it might be best to exclude the Stereo Bus signal from a performer's headphones, while using a sub mixed cue track in the auxiliaries specifically for a separate buss and output. There are any number of ways to accomplish similar things.

CaptDan

 

[PhilippeH]

Thanks. I'll need to work this out in front of the mixer. Simple and hopefully last question though. I do *not* want to use the analog (thence preamps) built into the Digidesign 002 Rack (mediocre preamps). I want to use the preamps and 48V phantom supply from the DM4800. Can I do this while using Input Bypass, or does Input Bypass also bypass the preamp / 48v section and only acts as a patchbay?

 

[captdan]

'Input Bypass' is a confusing term. In 'DM-eze' an Input can be two things: a source input, and a mixer Module Input. So, it's easy to misunderstand what really SHOULD be called 'Direct-To-Target' tracking.

If you're going into the DM's preamps you can Bypass [the DM's Module] Input and track directly from that to Ptools. This means you'd plug a Mic into the DM's preamp - and .48v power if required - and route that signal directly to your DAW using Method #2B. That's done by choosing 'M/L' as the physical Input source ('M/L' means Mic/Line), and assigning that to an OutPut Slot#. If an ADAT card is in Slot #1, you'd plug that slot's ADAT output into your Digi 002, then from there to Ptools. (I'm assuming the Digi 002 is your interface to Ptools - not firewire or something else.)

Does that make sense?

CaptDan

 

[PhilippeH]

Yrs, makers sense and thxs for taking time.
Before I forget, I do not want to monitor the wet fader strips to Stereo but instead assign them to my monitoring chain (headphones or monitors) via the buss itself routed to Assignable Sends. I assume I can do that as well as it my current moda operandi. You made it sound like the summing takes place on the stereo bus, but I don't even care about listening to the Direct sends to my digi 002R.

 

[captdan]

That's simple: just DEselect (or not assign) the inputs to the stereo bus, using the Stereo Assign button in the Bus/Assign panel, upper left.

CaptDan

 

[PhilippeH]

So I tried what you said. The assignment is actually in the second tab (Output) and I succeeded in assigning M/L22 to ADAT1. The problem is that ADAT1 can no longer be assigned to Bus1, so with this setup, I lose the ability to send other channels to ADAT1 (i.e. my only ProTools digital input 1-8). So this is way too static as I basically lose 8 BUS assignment channels which is onerous given that there are only 24.
Is my understanding correct? Above you made it sound like I would still be able to assign signal to ADAT! via BUS1 but this seems possible.

I really appreciate your help on this.

 

[PhilippeH]

What if I use the Direct Output? I have the ability to assign ADAT1to BUS1/DIRECT1 and so on, and the Output Assign section has a "Direct" button. I read somewhere that the Direct output is also pre-fader. Would this work? Does it mean that if my 8 drum mics are on physical inputs 17-24, then the only solution, although satisfactory, is to assign ADAT1-8 to BUS17/DIRECT17 all the way to BUS24/DIRECT24?
This way, I keep he ability to assign either post fader/EQ via bus or pre-fader via Direct?
To be clear though, Direct17 does not mean the analog SEND of channel 17 in the back of the mixer but rather the pre-fader post DM4800 preamp is this correct?

 

[captdan]

Have you tried it my way - using Output SLOT - TAB3?

Again: Output SLOT is NOT the same as Output on Tab2. OutPut Slot puts your originating signal directly into your mixer's Expansion Slot# - bypassing the mixer, providing an exact one-to-one signal match from source to target. There's NO danger of placing the fader to high or too low causing your printed track to be too quiet (although with PT's Clip Gain - fixable), or too hot (probably not fixable because it's clipped.).

Just do that much and we'll take it from there.

CaptDan

 

[PhilippeH]

I don't have any expansions slots in my mixer.
Although I just ordered the Tascam Firewire card which will give me 32 digital in and outs, and I can even get rid of the Digi 002 in the process as Protools no longer requires digi/avid hardware.
I will try again your suggestion and report, not sure I can try it without an expansion card though.

 

[captdan]

Personal opinion:wait for the Firewire card and let's tackle this problem once it's installed.

CaptDan