Smooth clean punch ins?

[musicianvw]

are you getting clean punch ins as in no click or pop between takes with the model 16? if not wondering what stand alone recorders you guys believe has the best smoothest punch ins thanks.

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

I’ve used the autopunch setting preroll 10 seconds ahead on Model 12 and it worked fantastically... zero noise even on the Oslo’s track.

mid i crank the track way up I can hear the punch as a shift in background noise character I suppose because I used a different t DI on the bass when fixing the track.

 

[Freebird]

I have Model 24, and I use an old foot-switch that came with my ancient Tascam Portastudio 244 way back in the Jurassic mid-80's. Works like a charm, and I can't say that I have noticed any glitches at all during punch in - punch out. So it works very well, and it's hard to imagine that other gear could do it any better.

But as JSchmo_Bass says... it may be a slight difference/change in the "background noise" depending on if you change outboard gear during recording sessions. Which I think has more to do with the different gears own specifications/quality and way to operate, than with Model 12/16/24 own quality.

 

[-mjk-]

I have never known a system to introduce a click or a pop when punching in unless it was malfunctioning. Punching-in is an artform and it takes considerable time to master it. What you hear are called "punch marks" and are audible (for one thing) because the punch-in wasn't accomplished at a zero crossing point (i. e. between transients, when the audio level is at it's lowest). I've done punch-ins on everything from a 3M M79 2" 24 track, to the DP-32, to Reaper (also many other machines) and although the method to accomplish the punch-in might be slightly different, the principle is the same.

To my ear, my "best, smoothest" punch-in is with my left hand on the remote control of the M79. I've also done perfect punch-ins on the DP-32. The M79 is faster that the DP-32 so I had to get a feel for that when using the DP-32. After several attempts I eventually got the hang of how the DP-32 responds when punching-in. Ultimately, the best method is auto punch-in, so if what you are consider buying has that feature, with experience, you will be very happy with the results.

Take note of the fact that in some instances (or maybe many) what is causing the punch mark is the result of having the machine in the same room with, and relatively near the mic. You press the button and sometimes the mechanical noise is present in the room and the recorder captures the reverb tail of you pressing the button as it goes into Record mode. So, try and work with the mic null towards the recorder controls, or even throw a thick towel over the panel for the punch-in if that's happening. Auto punch-in eliminates that problem completely.

 

[Freebird]

Very well said/written MJK!

It is truly an "artform" to do a "punch in/out" at the exact right "moment"!

That's exactly why myself... being a "Guitar Player"... with both hands fully occupied... prefer to use a "foot-pedal" to "punch-in/out" since it's to much of a "hassle" to pinpoint punch-in/punch-out by setting location points in Model 24 itself... and then have to not only "feel" when it's time to "come in"... but also to look at the screen to SEE when the exact point of entry occurs. I mean... it's a matter of MILLISECONDS... (I believe... think... imagine... )

I prefer to "FEEL" when it's time too "push the pedal" to achieve the exact point of "entry & outro"... very much like a Volume or Wah-Wah-pedal etc.

That's what works for ME. But other musicians may feel totally different about this and might prefer "Automation" without the need of "personal physical" input when IT actually happens.

Personally I don't like the "negative feeling" of that the "machine" decides when I'm supposed to "express my own feelings"... I mean ... it's up to my fekkin' self... if I mess up... I'll do it again... and again... until it's PERFECT!

Works for me... but maybe not for others... a matter of some kind of "irrational emotional subjectivity"... I guess... Eeh...?

 

[Hammarlund]

12 seems 100% clean FWIW, at least to my ears, which one would expect given its all-digital nature. I don't think there's even an analog relay involved, it's all done w/ bits. then again I have bad ears.

You can always do a test run:

1) Record music on track 1.
2) Play track 1 through sub out, run patch and record the whole thing on track 2.
3) Repeat the same thing (using track 1 via sub as input source) but do a punch in/out on track 2, so you're only recording part of the track.

If you can hear something--which you should not since the source is literally identical--then you have a problem, and can start to track (pun intended) it down.

You can do same thing w/ microphone as well, so long as the source originates and is also recorded on the Model 16 so you can eliminate off-time issues

 

[Arjan P]

Personally I don't like the "negative feeling" of that the "machine" decides when I'm supposed to "express my own feelings"...

You make it sound like with Autopumch the machine decides where the punches will be and you have to follow its lead. Now, I don't own a Model XX but I'm assuming the user decides the In and Out points..

Why fiddle with a button or footswitch in realtime when the technology allows you to carefully set the perfect In and Out positions beforehand? More importantly, all the more focus can be aimed at the performance! Very "positive feelings", if you ask me

 

[Freebird]

Hi Arjan P

I do get your point in that you can find the perfect IN and Out positions with Auto-punch, and of course that is a positive thing to have that available.

But for me the foot-switch "feels" more natural since that's how I did it on my Portastudio 244 back in the days. I do most of my punch in and out when playing guitar and maybe want to change a few seconds or a couple of measures of soloing. To me it feels more natural to start playback quite a long way before the punch in happens so I can play along and get "in the mood" when it's time to perform.

And also... there are many times that I have done a punch in with the foot-switch, played the new part... and then "on a whim" decided NOT to punch out where I had planned on and instead continued playing due to me feeling creative and "On A Roll". This way I have come up with a better and more creative performance than the one I just overwrote. He... and of course even WORSE sometimes! But if so... then I do it again until I get it right.

I guess that depending on what kind of music one are creating, different approaches to which way one decides to use "punching" can be applied. But for me, playing mostly Blues, Bluesrock, Boogierock, Classic Rock, Southern Rock, Texas Rock, Country, Gospel, Soul, Jazz, Funk... "stomping" on a box at the floor feels the most natural to me since I tend to stand up with my guitar when recording... "It's Only Rock 'N' Roll... But I like It... Like It... Yes I do"!

But of course... if it's a ballad, cinematic, ambient or other kind of music I definitely can understand the "positive feelings" you describe. It's all very subjective I think... and the important thing is that we all do what's works best for ourself.

 

[Arjan P]

Ofcourse, we all should do what feels best - and I have nothing against manually punching in and out. I just didn't see the negative in Autopunch..

In fact I hardly ever use punching in or out, neither automatically or manually, but that's because I record in a DAW (Cubase). The number of takes is limitless here, and assembling a single best take, or 'comping', is so easy that there's no need to punch in and out.. And this for me is all unrelated to the type of music - but I guess that's personal too.

 

[Freebird]

Yeah... agree totally, the "comping" ability in a DAW (testing/using Studio One myself) is a fantastic feature that I am going to look deeper into in the future. I bought my Model 24 just a year ago and are still "testing it out", and the same with Studio One... while also testing Mixbus at the same time.

So I haven't settled on exactly how my workflow will be. But I like the Model 24 for no need to have the computer connected all the time. Use it mostly as an "Old School Tape Recorder" and then transfer/export everything into DAW for mixing/mastering... and in the future to use the "comping" capability.

But I prefer to do most recording on the Model 24 since I don't have to take "latency" into consideration... He... cause I'm to "computer lazy" I guess!

I believe that DP-24 & DP-32 have something called "virtual tracks" that I suppose could be used almost like "comping" in a DAW...

 

[Krissie]

Hi there,
I am starting to use my DP-32 more often now and still learning with it. I realized that if I take the time for exactly defining a good "punch in/punch out" point, I get very smooth results. This may include several try + undos, but in the end much better than repeating the whole take. I use it for vocals and piano mostly. Looking forward to learn from this forum!

 

[Andy R.]

Footswitch comment:

Got my Model 16 around April or so. Read that you can "punch in" with a "momentary footswitch".

In 1987 I bought a Tascam 234 four track cassette recorder. The punch in footswitch was model RC 30P. It worked well. Since it was classified as a "momentary switch" I thought I could save a few bucks and just use it with the Model 16 but it just wouldn't work. Tried over and over and still wouldn't work.

Last week I browsed the manual and saw the "footswitch polarity issue". I thought it was a joke but just for fun I changed the freekin polarity and now it punches in like a charm.

 

[-mjk-]

Hi there,
I am starting to use my DP-32 more often now and still learning with it. I realized that if I take the time for exactly defining a good "punch in/punch out" point, I get very smooth results. This may include several try + undos, but in the end much better than repeating the whole take. I use it for vocals and piano mostly. Looking forward to learn from this forum!

Punching is an art form (said that many times). It's more about dynamics and zero crossing points than might be obvious. Also, one must really be playing or singing along for a good punch to work. For example: When punching in a vocal track, there is always some ambience in the room. If you are not singing the line before the punch-in, that ambience will not be there when you punch in on the line you want to re-take. Those little details are very important in professional production.

 

[Jeff Thurau]

I punch in manually—with my left hand. It’s been working very well! I have a homemade footswitch that I put together for my Yamaha MT100–not sure if it’s momentary or not—perhaps I’ll try it out. Oh yes, that’s whilst singing or playing guitar on a Model 16.

 

[Blue Monster 65]

See and hear Jeff, the singing, guitar playing acrobat!

Seriously, tho - that’s as much an art as skill.