Sync track DP32SD

[MiamiVlad]

Now that I had some time with it, how would I record a sync track, or record individual audio
tracks from a keyboard and have them be synched. No luck in the manual or online search. Thanks a lot

 

[RustyAxe]

Not sure what you're asking ... the DP32SD (and 24SD) do not support midi (which might explain why you can't find it in the manual). If you're recording audio from the keyboard, you'd just record on different tracks by reassigning the input(s).

 

[MiamiVlad]

Thanks Rusty, I understand DP32 doesn't have midi but..
If I have lets say 8 pre-recorded tracks of a certain song style in a work station/arranger keyboard and would like to record each individually, one after another to different tracks to DP32 by muting 7 tracks on the keyboard and only recording one track at a time, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, by letting the keyboard play by pressing Start button, how would I be able to have them all in synch. I am thinking of recording a metronome on a scratch track on DP32 and hopefully punch the Start button on the keyboard at the right time for each track.???

 

[Phil Tipping]

It's worth a try, but it may take a lot of attempts to get them in sync. The 'old school' way was to use a spare track to record a set of bleeps from a MIDI-to-bleep unit (I used a Philip Rees TS1 Tape Sync unit back in the cassette days). When played back, this converted the bleeps to midi time sync signals for the arranger keyboard. If you search this forum, there are some ways of mimicking this using short audio blips, but presume this only works with devices which can use these as sync pulses (instead of midi).
The way I sync up non-midi tracks is to record them out of sync, and then use cut/paste to move them into alignment. It helps if you can arrange each track to start with a reference pulse/click so you just line these up, then edit out the clicks afterwards. I've not tried this with the dp32 but it should be feasible as you can view the waveforms on the screen and set the location points for pasting.
Note this only syncs the start times, so very long tracks may drift out of sync gradually, but it may be good enough.

 

[MiamiVlad]

Thank you, my arranger has midi but as we know DP32 does not, which I knew when I bought it. Very happy with it, bless the new technology, cheap too. I will try your your advice. I also thought to simply record the tracks from the keyboard with 4 metronome clicks in the beginning and hope for the best. Later align them in DAW the best it can. I am sure it will be all right. Thanks for advice.

 

[Phil Tipping]

If you already have a DAW, was wondering why you don't record directly to it and align them there, but maybe you're using the dp32 as an audio interface to the computer. Either way, a DAW should be able to zoom in and align your metronome marks to almost sample precision. If you really need the final tracks back on the dp32 you could always transfer the aligned versions back via AudioDepot and they will retain their alignment.
By the way, if you do use a click at the start, watch out for the additive effect. I once used a high level click on a 24-track playback and had quite a shock when they all started up!
Season's greetings.

 

[MiamiVlad]

I have the GarageBand only but for now that is more than enough. I like to record, mix and master for now in DP 32. It is more fun pushing faders, and faster for me than computer screen and mouse. Later I will transfer the song/s to DAW and learn and have fun with it. Appreciate your advice, thanks, Seasons Greetings to you also

 

[David Porter]

The way I sync up non-midi tracks is to record them out of sync, and then use cut/paste to move them into alignment. It helps if you can arrange each track to start with a reference pulse/click so you just line these up, then edit out the clicks afterwards. I've not tried this with the dp32 but it should be feasible as you can view the waveforms on the screen and set the location points for pasting.
Note this only syncs the start times, so very long tracks may drift out of sync gradually, but it may be good enough.

I did this with the DP32-SD and it worked *perfectly*. It was a snap. And solved a real problem - as I was stuck with old Roland VS840 files stuck on a zip disc with no easy way to convert to wav.

 

[psymatix]

Yup , no MIDI for sync!
Was thinkin' perhaps you could use some type of old school FSK/ SMPTE / MTC/MIDI device ..i.e. ----> http://www.philrees.co.uk/products/tapesync.htm.... what do ya think folks?

 

[Phil Tipping]

psymatix yes, this was mentioned in post #4. I only used mine with a cassette portastudio but the TS1 sends & receives audio pulses - nothing special, so any audio recorder will work. Once you record the timing pulses you then use the recorder as the master clock. I sold mine as I found it more trouble than it was worth - lining things up manually was good enough for my type of music, but they're certainly handy gadgets if you can find one. I bought mine new for £100 but eventually sold it on eBay with a starting price of 99p... and only one person wanted it so they got a real bargain!

 

[psymatix]

I do lots of MIDI sequencing, so I'm going to give it a try, can anyone suggest an inexpensive unit? The one I referenced above is now discontinued.
Phil, could you please elaborate on ..."I found it more trouble than it was worth"

 

[Phil Tipping]

I guess most of the issues were really with the old 4-track cassette devices and would not apply to these digital dp recorders, e.g.
Reserving 1 track for sync pulses took away 25% of the total.
You had to be careful to keep the recording level of the sync audio pulses low enough to prevent 'bleed' onto adjacent tracks, but high enough for reliable detection on playback.
Neither of these would be an issue nowadays, so don't let me put you off - they definitely work well for holding sync as long as you like - and if you do lots of midi sequencing they would probably be perfect for you. I think you could even set up a tempo map but it was a long time ago so may be wrong.

 

[Sam Trenholme]

To repeat what was suggested in post #4 and post #9:

The way I do this here in the late 2010s is to have a 1980s unit stripe one of the tracks with a “FSK” sync tone. This is a special tone which sounds like a fax machine placed on one of the tracks with sync information (usually, by alternating between two frequencies) that can be converted in to a tempo sent over MIDI.

As far as I know, they no longer make dedicated tape sync units, but it’s easy to find old 1980s drum machines and sequencers with tape sync support; I recently got a Yamaha QX5 to do this for $50 which works quite nicely. Some late 1980s Roland drums machines (TR-626, R8, etc.) can do the same trick, also available for a good price on eBay. Be careful using an older Roland Drum machine with tape sync like the TR-909 (Paying $4000 to have something that does just MIDI-to-tape sync is one step removed from just burning money), TR-707, or TR-727; there are issues with those units running MIDI sync while being a tape sync slave (I believe there’s a firmware upgrade to the TR-909 which fixes this issue, but before spending $4,000 to solve your tape sync problem, please do some basic research)

To write the signal, what I do is, when starting a song, decide what tempo I want the song to have, then “stripe” (record) a sync signal at that tempo. Then, when playing back, I use one of the two FX sends to send that signal back to the unit, which then converts it in to a MIDI clock all of my other hardware can use.

For my last album (released in 2016), I did this with a Roland R8 drum machine, which did nothing on the entire album but read and write a FSK sync signal. For the current album, I am using a Yamaha QX5.

A couple of usage notes: The signal the QX5 uses is not compatible with the signal the R8 uses.

Also, there are issues with some newer gear dealing with the fact that MIDI starts but the BPM is 0 until the sync signal starts; my old ER-1 has little issue, but, as I recall, I have to start it before the sync signal begins the song. The Boutique sequencers need to be started within second or two before the sync starts otherwise they give up and go back to internal sync. The Akai Rhythm Wolf and Timbre Wolfs need to be power cycled before starting to lay down a new track every time, because they have a bug which makes them think MIDI start means MIDI continue.

That said, I have recorded an entire album this decade using this simple sync technique.

 

[psymatix]

I just bought a used Philip Rees TS1 Midi / SMPTE Tape Sync Unit online
I'm hoping it will perform and be more reliable that drum machine FSK sync.
http://www.philrees.co.uk/products/tapesync.htm

 

[kieron]

I had the same problem multitracking onto (& syncing from!) an old Revox 16 track in the 90's - we bought a Midiman Syncman - small grey box with red text - never ever let us down with a mid-level SMPTE track, we were on Cubase Atari 5.0 at the time (and those mighty beasts had the best MIDI clock tech - ever!)

There are nice rackmount versions now of the Midiman system, with more outputs/options. Depending on your needs (and I find myself the proud owner of a lovely Tascam with the same problem, i.e. no MIDI slave function - I think a good mono SMPTE signal from the Tascam will be enough to feed a unit like the Philip Rees as suggested by psymatix above, or the good old Midiman, to provide a strong enough pathway for most DAWs to follow, depending on all the variables of luck. And lag.

SMPTE of course comes from the video world, where they operate with an expectancy of latency if you factor overseas satellite delay between sound and picture, certainly in the analogue days.

And of course that world requires editors. From a practical point of view - the MIDI-SMPTE boxes are fun, they do work, and it's a nice bridge between old-school recording methods (which instills a good sense of discipline and healthy learning curve) and the new DAW all-singing 2018 software. But there's really not much difference between the Sync tools now and 30 years ago - think of it like mechanical film strips - those holes punched into the sides of celluloid film strips are the timecode of yesterday. We are spoiled by an abundance of wonderful new tools - but it always pays to learn the old ways.

 

[Tyros]

Hi
Just a thought .is the tascam foot pedal MIDI if yes could that not be used .
Might need some added software or am i being stupid again .
With my tascam pedal i can ....stop .start.rewind.and record.
If the pedal uses Midi to do that ,then you just need to work out the CC for the pedal.
Sorry if this post is stupid ................

 

[kieron]

The foot pedal is not MIDI compatible - however it wouldn’t be too hard to implement some sort of Start/Stop controller via Arduino to the pedal with latency compensation... it’s an idea worth considering!

 

[kieron]

https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=112424.0

This is the kind of thing I was thinking.

 

[Eric Guicherit]

Hey Sam, what cable do you use to connect the Tascam to the midi in from the Yamaha?

 

[Sam Trenholme]

Eric, go here: https://www.matrixsynth.com/2012/03/yamaha-qx5-digital-sequence-recorder-sn.html

If you look, the back of the QX5 has three MIDI ports (in/out/thru) and four 1/4" jacks (Tape in/out, foot switch, click out). The QX5 has the ability to convert audio (1/4") in to MIDI sync (MIDI).