Troubleshooting: Model 12 Stereo Mix Export - not exporting new Main Mix

[Zachary Stefanski]

Hello! Firstly, I apologize if the answer to my question is elsewhere on this site. I also apologize if I am not following any guidelines of this forum.

I have a brand new model 12 with the latest firmware. I recorded audio on to each of the 10 tracks, mixed it, and exported it using the Stereo Mix Export function. I go to listen to the result using the SD Main Return button, and the mix is noticeably different. What's more, is that the exported mix changes (to what more so resembles the current mix) after what sounds like a clock-issue noise. The unit is not connected to a computer via USB at the moment. The audio issue is printed onto the file saved in /Music on the SD card, and the internal channels 11 & 12 when I pull the files up on my computer.

The issue happens between 0:13 and 0:14. <--- link to drive .wav

What I've tried:
- Reformatted the sd card using the Media Format feature, then re-loaded the song to the card
- Manually deleted the exported file in /Music folder on SD card
- Factory Reset (or "Initialize") under Menu/System/Initialize

Please help! And thank you!!

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

Technically I believe the SD main mix button is not playing your stereo export file, it’s playing whatever is on your main tracks 11 & 12 back through main outs,

These two things can sound equivalent but only right after you record and do a stereo export operation and nothing else.

Stereo export creates a copy of your current master tracks 11 & 12 only it’s different:‘ it’s rendered as a two track stereo file in your music folder, not as 2 separate mono track files. That file is suitable for the outside world to listen.

If you re-record, say with new mix levels. you will over-write your track 11 & 12 (always, whenever recording the machine is ALWAYS making a new track 11&12 with whatever you have coming in to the summed main mixbus).

But any stereo export file you make is separate and will remain untouched until you do another export and overwrite.c.

So the two can easily diverge if you continue to try different mixes.

The only way to listen to your stereo export file after you make one is 1) to use the SD play feature or 2) reimport the file into tracks using track import or 3) listen on another device.

hope that helps?

 

[Zachary Stefanski]

Hey Mr. JSchmo_Bass!
Thank you for your response! Though, respectfully, I don't think you gave me the answers I'm looking for.

Let me try to rephrase my op - I see how I may have left some info out.

All channels are set to MTR mode. I recorded 10 tracks of audio (one at a time), mix it, then use the SME function.

The Stereo Mix Export function is described in the manual as the following:
"MAIN MIX L/R bus recording files (mono) can be converted to a single stereo file. Converted stereo files are saved in the "MUSIC" folder... Converted files can be played using this unit's SD PLAY mode..."

I try to listen to my new mix by selecting it using the SD PLAY mode, and the resulting .wav is wrong. It is not my new mix, and there are noticeable audio artifacts (clicking) and Pan/EQ changes around 0:13/0:14. Any attempt to overwrite the former SME stereo .wav file is futile. The result is always the same.

The SD Main Mix Return switch is described in the manual as the following:
"When this switch is on (pushed in), playback of stereo master files recorded on the SD card is output from the MAIN OUTPUT Jacks."

My assumption, by the name of the button & from what I've read, is that clicking the SD MAIN RETURN will play back the file I just created with the SME. And, in fact, it does play back the same damaged file.

The Question:

My assumption is that the SME will export whatever is coming out of my MAIN MIX L/R bus. But if what you're telling me is that the "MAIN MIX L/R bus recording files" and whatever I have coming out of my MAIN MIX L/R bus to my monitors are not the same, what can I do to change what has been "recorded" on to those channels (I assume 11/12) which are not representative of the main mix?

side note... What would be the point of the SME function if not to export the Stereo Mix, but rather another version?

Thank you, in advance, for your time and patience!

 

[Mark Richards]

I believe JSchmo's response to you is accurate on all points.

I don't own one of these FOH mixers, but...

My recollection from other threads in this forum is that the stereo file created by the Stereo Mix Export function and found in the SD Card's Music folder plays back through stereo channel 9/10. I think that's called SD Play mode in the OM.

The firmware internally creates the interleaved stereo .WAV file by duplicating the last mix recorded to proprietary tracks 11/12 on the SD card, converting the duplication internally, and placing the resulting standard .WAV file in the Music folder.

The Stereo Mix Export funtion ONLY creates a standard interleaved stereo .WAV file of the current console configuration IF the configuration is first memorialized by recording it to tracks 11/12.

The interleaved stereo .WAV file in the Music folder will NOT match the current console configuration UNLESS (1) the current console configuration has first been recorded to tracks 11/12 on the SD card; AND (2) the current configuration as recorded to tracks 11/12 on the SD card is then processed by the Stereo Mix Export function to create a NEW interleaved stereo .WAV file in the Music folder.

As JSchmo wrote in his reply to you, the SD Main Mix Return Switch engages for playback from the SD card whatever mix was last recorded on tracks 11/12.

With the SD Main Mix Return Switch off (up), the MAIN BUS L/R circuit passes to the monitors the current console configuration. With Switch engaged (down), the MAIN BUS L/R passes to the monitors the last console configuration as it was recorded to tracks 11/12 on the SD card. This permits A/B comparison of the current console configuration with the last recorded configuration.​

A search of the forum will likely turn up some relevant posts if you can't find anything useful in the less than stellar OM.

 

[Zachary Stefanski]

Thank you, Mark & JSchmo!

I discovered that my unit is faulty!

I just got off the phone with Tascam support and they confirmed that my unit is not operating as intended. That the SME function should print a perfect representation of what is coming out of my MAIN MIX L/R bus. If the stereo file printed and saved in /MUSIC is not representative of the mix dialed into the unit, then the unit should be replaced.

Brian (Tascam Support Dude) had not heard of this issue before.

Thank you all for your assistance! I hope this post helps someone who is having similar issues in the future.

side note... I really enjoy working on the Model 12 - as a guy who has grown up around DAWs (Live & Logic), I found the experience of tracking a full song on the M12 intuitive yet challenging and limiting in ways that forced me to focus more on the planning (song form, etc) and performance elements above all. It's easy to get caught in a "loop purgatory" in Live, where you wake up hours later with a headache and a perfectly crafted loop - but nowhere near a full song to show for it. The preamps on the M12 sound pretty good, and the eq/comps give just enough to make sufficient changes. I wish they would allow us to change some parameters with the comp (attack/decay/ratio), and the ability to change some of the EQ elements (Q & Freq) would be cool as well. But I'm happy with the limitations - I can fix it all in Live afterward anyway if I think the song is worth it.

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

I was going to confirm my post later tonight when I can get to my mixing desk.

…but I’m pretty sure that the SD return button is going to play through the Mains whatever is recorded on channel 11 and 12 at the moment and not a stereo mix export file in the music folder. the manual may (?) be misleading in this case.

The reason I recollected this way is In part because that button’s feature will work even if you have not yet exported a stereo mix from a particular song

It’s a very useful feature for A/B comparing the current mix you have dialed onto the board,vs a mixdown that you’ve already recorded on to Channel 11 and 12. You can switch back and forth at will.

 

[Zachary Stefanski]

(edited)

Thanks, JSchmo!

I can confirm (though, to be clear, this is with a faulty mixer) that you are correct about tracks 11 & 12! I recorded 10 seconds of speaking on ch 1, then checked the SD card and ch 11 & 12 had both the click track (?) and 10 seconds of speaking.

My issue still remains that (regardless of where I listen to the SME file - the SD MAIN MIX RETURN, the SD PLAY feature, opening up the /music folder and listening to it via my computer) the exported stereo .wav as a result of engaging the SME feature is not overwriting what was recorded on to 11 & 12. It never updates it with the new mix. I'm pretty sure we're dealing with a bug in my unit.

 

[Mark Richards]

What I'm getting from your posts is:

• In making only one mix which is recorded automatically on the SD card as proprietary MTR tracks 11 & 12 when the Record button is engaged; and

• Then performing the Stereo Mix Export function to also convert electronically the proprietary mix on MTR tracks 11 &12 into a standard .WAV file placed in the Music folder; and

• Making no console changes to the mix nor again engaging the Record button; and

• With the Menu set to SD Playback mode, and Channel 9/10 set to MTR to play back the standard .WAV file now in the Music folder; and

• Then using the required SD MAIN MIX RETURN switch to play back that same mix as it exists on the proprietary MTR tracks 11 & 12;

• When compared, the two mixes are not the same, although they should be.

That indeed is Twilight Zone weird.

My understanding of how this is supposed to work according to the OM:
Proprietary Files Recorded to MTR Tracks 11 & 12 on the SD card

The proprietary files contained on MTR tracks 11 & 12 are written, then overwritten, every time the Record button is engaged to capture the incoming signals on Channels 1~10 that are set to "Record Ready".

The only way on the Model 12 to hear the current proprietary MTR tracks 11 & 12 that are on the SD card is to engage the SD MAIN MIX RETURN switch.
​

Stereo Mix Export Function

When performing a Stereo Mix Export, the current mix contained in the recording on proprietary MTR tracks 11 & 12 is also converted electronically to a standard interleaved stereo .WAV file and the .WAV file is placed in the Music folder.

That standard interleaved stereo .WAV file in the Music folder doesn't change until a new mix has been recorded on MTR tracks 11 & 12 and, again using the Stereo Mix Export function, the new mix that's been recorded on tracks 11 &12 is converted electronically to a standard .WAV file and placed in the Music folder, overwriting the previously created .WAV file in the Music folder.

The only way on the Model 12 to hear the most current standard interleaved .WAV file stored in the Music folder is to enter SD Play mode from the Menu Screen, which allows the most current .WAV file in the Music folder to be played through stereo Channel 9/10 set to MTR.​

 

[Zachary Stefanski]

Mark, you're largely correct! To summarize...

The issue is that my board's SME function prints tracks original 11/12 channels at the point of recording the tracks and not the current mix config. Since I punched in multiple times throughout the recording process, 11/12 (prior to using the SME) sound like a bunch of tapes of the same song spliced together at the point of each punch-in. Each punch in reflects the mix at the time of the punch in.

Mark's recent OM post (and Brian at Tascam) confirm that the SME should take your board's current mix config (volume, pan, eq, comp, fx send, etc) and print it as a stereo .wav in /music AND replace the spliced 11/12, for you to reference using the SD PLAY. As you posted in your most recent post.

Boards that do not do this need to be replaced as no firmware update, factory reset, sd card reformat, or the like will fix it.

What the OM has conflicting info about is that the SD MAIN MIX RETURN is another way for (as JSchmo said before) "A/B comparing the current mix you have dialed onto the board,vs a mixdown that you’ve already recorded on to Channel 11 and 12. You can switch back and forth at will."

The OM, instead, says "The only way on the Model 12 to hear the most current standard interleaved .WAV file stored in the Music folder is to enter SD Play mode from the Menu Screen."

What it should say is "The only way on the Model 12 to hear the most current standard interleaved .WAV file stored in the Music folder is to enter SD Play mode from the Menu Screen ***or engage the SD MAIN MIX RETURN."

We know this to be true because the OM says "When performing a Stereo Mix Export, the current mix contained on proprietary MTR tracks 11 & 12 is converted electronically to a standard interleaved stereo." ... and tracks 11/12 return out the MAINs when the SD MAIN MIX RETURN button is engaged. Sure, on a technical level the SD MMR is returning two mono tracks and the SD PLAY is returning one stereo - but if it quacks like a duck...

Thank you all immensely for your help here in deducing my broken mixer! I'll confirm this info when the new one comes in.