HOWTO: Using external send effect with DP-24/DP-32(SD)

[Sam Trenholme]

It is possible to use an external send effect with the DP-24(SD) and DP-32(SD) and have the effect’s return be added to the stereo mix. The effect — reverb, usually — can be a stereo effect; it is possible to set it up so the effect coming back in to the desk comes back with one side panned to the left and the other side panned to the right. Indeed, it’s possible to set levels and EQ with an effect’s return.

To do this:

• The effect will use up two of the eight inputs of the DP-32SD. It’s still possible to record six other instruments at the same time while monitoring with reverb added via a send.
• Let us suppose the reverb’s return is patched to inputs C and D on the DP-32SD.
• Tap the button marked effect. Turn off the internal effect (Note: If the internal effect is on, it will be mixed with the external effect, which may be useful.) by tapping F4.
  
• Tap the button marked assign. Make sure “C” and “D” are assigned to the stereo bus.
• Now, this is the part I had to look at the block diagram to figure out: Tap the “mixer” button. Then tap the green “source” button below “C”.
  
• In the mixer screen, pan “C” all the way to the left.
• Likewise, go to “D”s mixer channel and pan “D” all the way to the right.
• It’s also possible to set the reverb return level for both sides (move the cursor to “level”, and use the jog wheel to set level), as well as the EQ.
• We now have an external stereo effect being added to the mix.

I thought effects added to the stereo bus had to be in mono; I’m glad to have been wrong about this.

One final thought: With 32 tracks in the DP-32SD, there’s a lot of tracks where effects can be printed, allowing, say, the snare drum to have its own reverb.

 

[Sam Trenholme]

How to have an external effect be put on a track instead of the stereo bus: Go back to the assign screen (tap “assign” and use the arrow keys to go down to “C” and “D”'s assignment on the stereo bus, and turn off their assignment there. Then, go up to the track you want to put the effect on, such as 15-16, and assign its input to C-D either by tapping “C” and “D” at the same time or by selecting it with the jog wheel while the cursor is on tracks 9-10)

I do not know a way of printing the internal reverb/delay effect to a track on the DP-32SD (it’s possible to print the dynamics or guitar effect to a track, but not the reverb/delay “send” effect).

 

[JImM]

Hi Sam

You can print the internal effect to a track by using the bounce bus. Your trusty block diagram will show you how.

 

[Vincee]

Hi,

I also read elsewhere that it was possible to print the internal effect return to a track.
Here is how I do it:

-Set the effect you want with the RETURN to 127.
-Set your TRACK 2 settings : SEND EFF1 to 127 and PRE fader. SEND MASTER 1 to 127.
-Go in BOUNCE mode and choose your ''to be bounced'' track (TRACK 2). Then, choose the
track you will bounce to.
- Turn down the level of TRACK 2 to -inf.
- Record. The level of the effect is not affected by the fader position in PRE fader mode. You are
then recording only the effected signal to a new track.

If anyone has another technique to do this ( print the internal effects), I would like to learn it too !!

Thanks and enjoy making music

 

[-mjk-]

Excellent topic! I found this old thread to see if anyone addressed a little "gotcha" that I ran into....

Right away I realized that I would be doing quite a bit of recording in Bounce mode in order to mix effects with sources, and often with no tracks selected as bounce sources. I had a stereo guitar signal on 2 sources, panned hard L/R on the destination stereo pair tracks. I also assigned the stereo returns of my external FX processor to the same tracks, also panned hard L/R. I got everything set up perfectly, with dynamics, EQ, and send levels from the guitar inputs. Great! Ready to record in Bounce mode!

Upon pressing Bounce, my sends disappeared. Sure enough, cycling between Multitrack and Bounce modes confirmed that my sends were not making it to the external FX processor. I bet some of you are laughing, because it's kind of rookie mistake, but it took me a few minutes to realize why. It's not really intuitive, but it's just how the DP-32 is wired.

It's been pointed out that sources can still make it to the Bounce bus without being assigned to the stereo bus. This is true, because my guitar sources were not on the stereo bus, but I could hear/see their signals on the destination tracks. However, unless the source is assigned to the stereo bus, the effects send will not work in Bounce mode.

Please note that I was working with Send 2. Send 1 may very well work if unassigned, but at the time, I wasn't interested in dis/proving that. I'm guessing that Send 1 works identically with the exception of being normaled to the internal FX.

Interesting machine with lots of capability, but you really have to know how it works.

 

[-mjk-]

I did a reference vocal track tonight, on a mono track. I wanted to record FX return from the TC-Helicon to a stereo pair. The only way I could get the effects send 2 to send a signal from the mic input source to the TC-Helicon, was to route the source to the stereo bus (like my previous post about bouncing). But, with the source on the stereo bus, that really messes with monitoring!

 

[Phil Tipping]

mj - you can turn down/off the input level to the stereo bus via the level control in the mixer - this is the one which mirrors the track fader level control, but is only available in the mixer screen. Don't forget to set the input send(s) to PRE.

 

[-mjk-]

Thanks Phil. That's kinda dumb though! The sends should work all the time, not just when the source is routed to the stereo bus, which in most cases is an undesirable condition.

 

[Gmoney]

I just purchased the DP-24SD. How do I connect an external effects unit to it? I have connected the "SEND" outputs, but where do I connect the "RETURN" inputs from the effects processor?

 

[David Porter]

Welcome to the forum, Gmoney. And congratulations on your new recorder. They're a fun and powerful piece of hardware.

You'll want to connect the output of your external effects unit to any available input (A-H). The "external effects return" on these units are the inputs.

There's more to it than simply connecting the cables. If you haven't already - you'll need to learn how to route the signal to the send bus and also set your input-to-track assignment(s). Not difficult - but there are a few steps that once memorized - become second nature.

If you look at the top of this forum you'll see a number of sticky threads that are packed full of tips, tricks, and general resources and knowledge for DP-24/32(SD) users. I strongly suggest that you begin with the video tutorial series that was created by forum member Phil Tipping. You can skip around in the videos to figure out what you're wanting to accomplish at the moment - but I highly recommend that you start at the beginning and take the time to work your way through the videos. This way you'll have a solid understanding of the many functions and an idea of how and why things work the way they do with these units.

Between that and the forum search function you should be able to get a good grasp on the DP.

But certainly - once you've taken a look at the videos and are still having trouble with something - come on back here and ask questions - and hopefully one or more of us can get you squared away.

Enjoy! These are really fun recorders.

(keep in mind that the videos are free to view as many times as you'd like - but Phil put a lot into these and he does accept a $$ donation of your choosing should you find them that valuable - I did!)

 

[-mjk-]

@Gmoney re-read bullet point #2 of the first post. And watch all of these: http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/dp-24-32sd-tutorial-videos.4475/

 

[trmx]

Thanks Phil. That's kinda dumb though! The sends should work all the time, not just when the source is routed to the stereo bus, which in most cases is an undesirable condition.

I was hoping I could use the Bounce bus as another pair of Effect sends (yes, 4 sends at the same time; sending the bounce mix to the monitor outs as 2 monos, with the Main Outs as monitors), but I think I found a few hangups; from your experience maybe you can confirm:

Part 1)In Bounce mode only two tracks can be armed for recording, right? so tracks 1&2 could be routed to the L/R of the Bounce and out through the monitor outs->Outboard FX-> and back into the nominated bounce tracks (3&4). But recording another outside source to a separate track (4) during Bounce appears to not be possible. Is that true?

Part 2)When in Bounce mode: a playback track(5)that is not part of the Bounce source or destination seems to be switched out of the Eff1/2 Busses. In playback mode the signal appears in Eff1/2, but the signal does not come through in Bounce mode. Does that sound accurate or am I mis-routing?

Thank you

 

[Mark Richards]

Welcome to the forum, trmx.

As a new Forum member,

I suggest, if you haven't yet done so, that you update to the latest firmware and assure you're using a TASCAM tested/approved SD card. More on that in the Equipment Tips sticky.

Also I suggest you review, if you haven't yet, Phil Tipping's free Video Tutorials and other available resources Phil has developed:
Phil's Free Video Tutorials (Donations Appreciated)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLI2uGjCObnySgNrQyJmlcQpQaUdgBdW6l
More Resources:
http://philizound.co.uk/freebies/dp24-32/dp24-32.html#offline-tutorial
http://philizound.co.uk/freebies/dp24-32/dp24-32.html#guide​

To your question:
Your signal routing choice will give you a nasty feedback loop that has the potential to damage the Input electronics. Understanding your OM's Block Diagram (signal flow) is essential to advanced use of the portastudio.

In Bounce Mode, the firmware only permits recording either to one stereo pair of tracks, or to a single mono track.

The Production Tips Sticky and the Equipment Tips Sticky have several examples of internal and external signal routing and interfacing outboard gear that can help point you in the right direction to accomplish what you want to do.

Indexes to the respective sticky posts are found in Post #1 of each sticky.

 

[trmx]

Mark:

Thanks for your response. I did spend some time with the manual - enough to convince myself it could work, but not enough to see I was mistaken!
Phil's videos and this forum have been super helpful so far; and your confirmation about Bounce mode recording solidifies that I rushed into this purchase. Fortunately the place I got it from has a good return policy. The capability that this thing has obscures the more basic routing things that I want to do. I think I could work with a 8 track cassette recorder but I don't want to get into refurbishing units and scouring the thrift stores for chrome tapes at this time.
I almost went for a mixer and a HD24 but that would have been too large (& too easy)
So after some research and block diagram immersions I ended up with a model 24. I see a couple of you drift into that forum as well; so see you on the other side.

Thanks again;
TM

 

[-mjk-]

@trmx are you trying to do complex sub-mixes?

 

[trmx]

Yes, outboard processing using multiple tracks. Patch work; you could say. The Model 24 appear to be easier to tap in to. I'm hoping I don't come up against another block diagram wall.

 

[-mjk-]

No, the problem with the model 24 is that you can only get that kind of patching by using physical patch cables.

I've written a production post about doing submixes in Mixtown mode with everything you need on the submix, and then importing that back into two tracks. I did some very complex submixes on the DP machine in that manner.

 

[lastmonk]

Three Stereo and External Send Effects Questions.

I mix and master on headphones. I'm currently using Sennheiser HD 600. I want to use external effect send 2 to send Tracks 1-9 to Sienna Studio Headphone Calibration:

https://www.sienna.studio/

I want to bounce the return to stereo. So I'm thinking I would use two inputs on the way back in from Sienna Room, and assign them to a pair of DP 24 tracks, or a stereo track.

I have not purchased Sienna Studio yet., So I can't really test it. I kind-a want to solve the problem before I make the purchase

I'm assuming ( please someone correct me if I'm wrong) That I can use Effect Send 2 out to Sienna Studio and then return the stereo signal from Sienna Studio to two tracks during my Bounce. I want to be able to hear my new stereo mix by monitoring Bounce under Monitor Select

Question 1:
Do I need to hard pan things on the way back in, or I do leave the two inputs alone?

Question 2:
Will I be able to monitor the stereo result on the Bounce tracks with Bounce selected under monitor select?

Question 3:
The way I'm reading the mixer block diagram for the Tascam DP 24 it looks like panning adjustments are not sent over effects send 2. Am I reading the diagram wrong?


I'm hearing some very encouraging things about Sienna Studio for those of us who are more-or-less forced to mix/master through headphones.

When I want to use VST Plugins with my DP/24 ,I use my Motif XF as a 16 channel FW audio interface into Cubase, and I run my Tascam Send Effect 2 into Audio In on the Motif, and run a couple assigned audio outputs back into the Tascam for to be recorded to my Bounce track(s).

I'm hoping I can use Sienna Studio for a little headphone calibration and studio simulation on my DP 24 tracks

TIA

 

[Mark Richards]

I'm currently using Sennheiser HD 600...Sienna Studio Headphone Calibration...I'm hoping I can use Sienna Studio for a little headphone calibration and studio simulation

"...emulating mixing and mastering rooms, high-end monitors, Hi-Fi systems, car stereos, TVs, radios, laptop speakers, and more. Just put up your headphones, and you’re instantly teleported to some of the best control rooms you can find. Right off the bat, Sienna includes the accurate models of two studios, an anechoic chamber, and four sets of high-end monitors. If you do the math, it’s like owning an impressive $650,000 worth of gear, and that is without considering the gargantuan cost of building the actual rooms alone."

WOW.

It never ceases to amaze me how much hyperbole companies will use and how happy they are to separate people from their hard earned money in exchange for something that sounds too good to be true.

There's a reason studios spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on acoustics and reference systems instead of buying a set of headphones and some software. No headphone can simulate the acoustics of a physical room, let alone a car. It's psycho-acoustically impossible. That why I, and every professional audio engineer I know, will always say mix and master using a good audio reproduction reference system as your primary tool whenever possible.

If you're in a situation where you must use headphones, your Senn HD600 is a world class reference headphone, with neutral headphone frequency response, and excellent image resolution, sound stage, and accuracy (if you're not familiar with reading headphone spec sheets, you'll have to trust me on this). That's why they've been in continuous production since 1997. What you hear is what you'll get. Listen at a comfortable level and stay focused primarily on the quality of the sound between 100 Hz and about 3kHz, and the depth and width of the sound stage, and the audio quality of your mixes and masters should transfer well to most real-world audio reproduction systems.

My AKG K701 is very similar to the characteristics of your Senn HD600. If you're interested, there's a post in the Production Tips sticky on my headphone collection and how I make use of them in the tracking/mixing/mastering processes.

 

[-mjk-]

Question 1:
Do I need to hard pan things on the way back in, or I do leave the two inputs alone?

You have to pan the mono tracks how you want them in the stereo field. So if you are bringing a stereo pair into the inputs and you want to hear them in stereo on 2 mono tracks, yes, pan the mono tracks using the Mixer. In the case of a stereo track you assign one input to each side of the track and it will be in stereo.

Question 2:
Will I be able to monitor the stereo result on the Bounce tracks with Bounce selected under monitor select?

Yes. Whatever you are bouncing will be heard on the Bounce bus.

Question 3:
The way I'm reading the mixer block diagram for the Tascam DP 24 it looks like panning adjustments are not sent over effects send 2. Am I reading the diagram wrong?

No, you are not wrong. The Sends are both mono so to do anything in stereo requires using both sends, one for Left and the other for Right. The sends sum stereo tracks to mono.

Probably the best way to do this would be to use the stereo outputs on the DP machine and put that on the PC interface input. Then monitor the output of the software on the headphone jack on the interface.