Delay (latency) on digital consoles

[Layer-Status]

I came across a nice article about delay on digital consoles.

It did answer some questions I had in mind while using my DM's. Qestions that, if I would know how to ask them, I had asked them here at the forum.

The article is about delay's in the signal path of digital mixers and how to handle them.

http://www.technicalaudio.com/reading/d ... delay.html

It is written by John Klett ( http://www.technicalaudio.com/resume/john_klett.html )

How do you handle with this kind of delay that is explained in the article?


Best regards

 

[Arjan P]

How do you handle with this kind of delay that is explained in the article?

As a vocalist (and having recorded many other vocalists), I've never encountered any weirdness in foldback to the headphones, and delays there may or may not be. The first thing I noticed though, is that this article is originally from 1999, which is now quite some time ago. Considering the consoles that were current at the time of writing must have been designed, say, three years before at least? AFAIK from this forum, the DM's internal processing delay is <1 ms - nothing to worry about IMO.

 

[Layer-Status]

DM3200 specs.

Signal delay < 1.7 ms — Fs = 48 kHz, LINE IN to STEREO OUTPUT
< 0.85 ms — Fs = 96 kHz, LINE IN to STEREO OUTPUT

I'm using it at 48kHz. Is this the maximum delay I get with all effects and eq's and comp's and gate's running on all channels and complex routing too? Or does this delay change with different cahnnel counts?

So that means if I wanna use a outboard compressor for paralel compression, I have to set a project with delay on every channel with the amount 1.7ms except on the aux return from the outboard comp?

Sometimes I wish the DM had an analog signal path with the same routing possibilities it offers now.

 

[Gravity Jim]

Sometimes I wish people would stop reading spec sheets. It makes them worry about things that aren't there.

I record my own vocals all the time, monitoring through the DM3200 (and for years before that a Yamaha 02R), and like Arjan I've never experienced any latency that would affect a performance.

The article is from 13 years ago, it's on the subject of large-format digital boards, and a console with an analog signal path that allowed for the same routing flexibility we now enjoy in our DM consoles would look like Houston Mission Control.

Seriously, don't let these numbers affect your work. Just listen and play and mix.

 

[captdan]

Seriously obsolete article. 'Truncating at 20 bits?' Holy moly; true around the time Noah was launching his yacht.

Not relevant.


CaptDan

 

[waterstrum]

DM3200 specs.

Signal delay < 1.7 ms — Fs = 48 kHz, LINE IN to STEREO OUTPUT
< 0.85 ms — Fs = 96 kHz, LINE IN to STEREO OUTPUT

I'm using it at 48kHz. Is this the maximum delay I get with all effects and eq's and comp's and gate's running on all channels and complex routing too? Or does this delay change with different cahnnel counts?

So that means if I wanna use a outboard compressor for paralel compression, I have to set a project with delay on every channel with the amount 1.7ms except on the aux return from the outboard comp?
.

Actually this is a valid point.
Even 1.7ms will mess up parallel compression, in that the combined signals will have the sound of that 1.7ms delay.
Truly a deal breaker for the intended result.

Layer-Status, are you running your audio from a DAW?
In that case, you can use automatic delay compensation or just shift the second track.

 

[captdan]

"shift the second track."

For what it's worth, tiny delays like these are a fact of audio life. If you use two mikes on a gtr cabinet - one on the grill and another 4 feet back - the distance mike will likely be somewhat delayed. But - will you hear it?

Automatic delay compensation is designed to ameliorate cumulative delays and phase incoherence caused by DAW plug ins. It isn't intented to realign signal out of the box. Safer to use the DM's channel delays if that's the concern.

CaptDan

 

[Jarno]

Sometimes I wish people would stop reading spec sheets. It makes them worry about things that aren't there.

Indeed! Spec sheets are wonderful source of information, if you know what the specs really mean and how they affect your work, but if you don't ... well ... in best case you would just be completely misguided by marketing hype (want to buy this 192kHz 32-bit A/D converter for $10.000?).

Even 1.7ms will mess up parallel compression

Even 0.17ms would mess up parallel compression. And that's why you never should split phase-critical signals on different devices having any latency. But would you really even think about making parallel compressing with one signal going through DM and one bypassing it? I can't even think of any situation where I would need such routing nightmare (even if DM had 0.000001ms latency).

 

[Layer-Status]

[
Layer-Status, are you running your audio from a DAW?
In that case, you can use automatic delay compensation or just shift the second track.

Yes, I'am using logic 8 on a PPC G5.

Workarounds I did find are:

Mix in the box, in logic you can use the I/O plug-in. There you can tell logic the delay time it needs. In logic 9 there is also a ping function.

Mix on the DM:

Route all inputs to channels, then route this channels to a (stereo) buss and not to the Stereo (Master) buss. Put the delay it needs on this buss.
Route the desired channel to your outboard and then to another buss.
Then route both busses to stereo buss.

It doesn't look like a routing nightmare at all.

I like to do some live synth jams with gear connected to my DM's. It sounds better when all it is in sync to my ears.


With the cue-mix to headphone I and my clients didn't encountered any weirdness too.

Regards