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DM 3200 with MOTU 2408 MK2 - clocking Issues !

Tuviel

Tuviel

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May 27, 2015
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DM3200
Hi Guys,


Finally got my DM yesterday. Started setting everything up and when I record arm a track in my DAW I'm getting blasts of white noise. I'm fairly certain this is a clocking issue? I'm connected via TDIF cables.

2408MK2/PCI is set for "internal" clocking. DM is set for TDIF1. When I run the clock checks on the DM they are fine as seen below in the screenshot.

Here is the interesting thing. I was reviewing the 2408MK2 manual and found an entry about TDIF clocking which says that "TDIF does not send any form of word clock along with the analog signal. Therefore sync cannot be achieved via the TDIF connection"! I attached a screenshot of that below.

The manual suggests using word clock for sync. I ordered a word clock cable but I am really confused. I always thought TDIF (digital) was able to send clocking signals?

Why does the DM offer this as a clocking source if it can't send a clock signal? And why do the DM clock checks come back okay for all (3) TDIF ports? Very confused about this one...o_O



Clock Check TDIF.jpg MOTU TDIF sync from manual.jpg



Anyone have luck clocking their devices via TDIF? Help Plz! Thanks!
 
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@cmaffia - Yeah, I was thinking the same but a little cash strapped at the moment. I'll see what I can do. Thanks for the advice.
 
Even though I've owned a bunch of TDIF devices, I've never tried to clock them that way. Try running it as the DM seems fine with the arrangement, and if you start getting symptoms of clocking errors, try the BNC connector. Or go hi-def 32-channel with the Firewire card.

Is it possible that TASCAM TDIF ports to send clock, but MOTU 2408 ports don't?
 
Yes I think you are right Jim. I found another small one liner tucked away in the user manual for the 2408Mk2 which states the MOTU cannot sync via TDIF. I've ordered the BNC and will try word-clock via BNC with the DM set to internal this weekend. I'll post the results. This may be helpful to others in the future.
 
You should be fine once you get the word clock cable. If you look at the old tascam converters that did AES to TDIF and vice versa they have a work clock cable connection and that is the only way to clock via TDIF because as the MOTU manual stated. TDIF does not carry clocking signal.
I use TDIF to go to my Digi 192's from the DM3200 and I have the whole thing clocked with an external clock via word clock on BNC.
The BNC cable and clocking to work clock is the key to getting the MOTU and the DM talking.
 
Actually, that's not entirely correct. I got curious and dig some digging. The first TDIF spec did not include a clock signal, but the later TDIF-1 spec did. This would explain why the DM mixer allows you to choose TDIF-1 as a clock source. The BNC connection is still faster and probably more desirable, but the MOTU box apparently features ports from the earlier spec, so it's a moot point.

Still, I have to ask... why would you connect a 192K interface to anything via TDIF when you have accept a reduced channel count to get above a 48K transfer?

One of the things I love about the DM/IF-FW combo is the absence of clocking problems and the redundancy of an external clock. I sold my Lucid with my 02R.
 
Makes sense. I'm not in front of the control panel but I don't think the MOTU even has an option to clock off TDIF which is why I set it to internal and the DM to TDIF. I just assumed TDIF carried clock signal.

I don't do anything above 48k so that doesn't bother me so much. I do plan on getting a FW card soon but I need to get a custom desk built first. At that point I might revisit 96k via the IF FW/DM.

By the way, what's the difference between the FW/DM and the FW/DMm2?
 
Gravity Jim said:
Actually, that's not entirely correct. I got curious and dig some digging. The first TDIF spec did not include a clock signal, but the later TDIF-1 spec did. This would explain why the DM mixer allows you to choose TDIF-1 as a clock source. The BNC connection is still faster and probably more desirable, but the MOTU box apparently features ports from the earlier spec, so it's a moot point.

Still, I have to ask... why would you connect a 192K interface to anything via TDIF when you have accept a reduced channel count to get above a 48K transfer?

One of the things I love about the DM/IF-FW combo is the absence of clocking problems and the redundancy of an external clock. I sold my Lucid with my 02R.
Click to expand...

I stand corrected then! Thank you for the clarification Jim.

The Digi192's actually do real time sample rate conversion on the way in so I can run the DM3200 at 96k and Pro Tools and the Digi192's at 96k with no reduction in channel counts and from what I can tell no degradation of audio. Also works with any other DAW besides Pro Tools so I use my Pro Tools hardware with Cubase and WaveLab, etc, with no issues either. Just rock solid consistent performance. The only downside is that I have to use the AES connection back to the DM to get audio out because the 192's don't do sample rate conversion on the way out. I've been thinking of getting a pair of AES Cards for the DM and switching them out to do summing in the DM like we have talked about on previous threads but I am very satisfied with the mixes I am getting in the box so I am in no hurry to add the cards especially since my desk makes it very difficult to switch out the cards quickly.

I also have the firewire card but I much prefer a PCI or PCIe card in the Mac, connected to dedicated I/O. Even with the firewire card I still clocked externally because to my ears I like the way the Antelope sounded compared to everything clocked with the DM as master and daisy chained. I use star topology with the Antelope, all cables the same length and I NEVER have clocking issues or pops and clicks in the recordings. I know it is over kill but it works for me after years of trial and error and I am very happy with the results.

I used to have a Lucid GenX192 to clock everything and it was never consistent and I had no faith in it. I quickly bought the Antelope and compared the two and the Lucid was on eBay in a few days. That unit caused me more headaches and in my opinion not worth the $600 I paid for it!

But all these conclusions are personal preferences after having the mixer for almost 10 years and trying every combination and route possible.
I am concerned that they are going to be discontinuing the DM series with no replacement from Tascam in sight and at that point it looks like dropping $10,000 to $20,000 on a Yamaha digital board or breaking the bank and getting an unloaded API 1608 for roughly $50,000.
Not looking forward to that expenditure AT ALL!!
 
That's why I'm not doing it. When my DM becomes obsolete, I'll start mixing ITB.
 
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Good news. Problem solved! For anyone interested, you need word clock sync to communicate with the DM from a Motu 2408 MKII.

First, there are two types of BNC cable. You need 75ohm cable for word clock sync. Connect the cable to the word clock "out" port on the motu and set the motu to "internal" sync.

On the DM, connect the BNC cable to the word clock "in" port and set the DM to clock from word clock. Don't forget to turn on the little dip switch on the back of the DM to activate word clock communication. Works like a charm!

I recorded 16 tracks simultaneously into the DAW. Sounds pristine. I even got a little brave and decided to setup transport and remote fader control. It was super easy. :0) I can control 16 faders and now have transport control in any fader layer. I'll post in another thread steps for setting this up.

The only issue is I can only control 16 faders. Is there a way to add more fader control? I tried to add another control surface in the DM control panel and assign to another 16 faders but it wouldn't let me. I'm using ports 5-6. Maybe if I use the other ports there's a way to do this? Any thoughts?
 
Tuviel said:
The only issue is I can only control 16 faders. Is there a way to add more fader control?
Click to expand...
There is: you simply need to bank to the next batch of 16 from your DAW (or from the machine control buttons on the DM). This is different between DAWs.

BTW, I've always learned it's better to have the device doing the A/D conversion as master clock, which in your case means you'd have to clock the other way around: DM set to internal and MotU to word clock IN. Not sure if it still holds true these days though..
 
@Arjan P


Yes - It is certainly better to have the AD as the master but the MOTU manual specifically says to set the Motu to internal for TDIF sync so I figured may as well follow the directions, lol. It's working fantastic so knock on wood.

Glad to hear there is a way to get to the next fader set by banking. I saw a little popup which indicated something of this nature. It said to use "F2" but when I tried that nothing happened. I have to try a few different things tonight. Thanks for all the advice Arjan it's much appreciated.

I gotta' say, I'm really stoked with the DM so far. I tore my analog console down and all my patch bays and then rewired everything and with the DM I have as much or probably even more access to my hardware with about half the cabling! It's fantastic!

I'm finding myself zipping through the menus now as well. I've been reading this forum for about (3) months though so I had a good idea about all the possible glitches and their respective solutions. Reading that manual a few times was extremely helpful. They put little teeny breadcrumbs in there, just enough to get you all confused. ;) But just having certain info in the back of the mind helps figure out what might be going on.

You guys are awesome! I have some more questions and when I figure things out I'll be posting step by step instructions to pay it forward.
 
Tuviel said:
I gotta' say, I'm really stoked with the DM so far. I tore my analog console down and all my patch bays and then rewired everything and with the DM I have as much or probably even more access to my hardware with about half the cabling! It's fantastic!
Click to expand...

Wait til you go FireWire. ;)
 
"I've been reading this forum for about (3) months....."

Before I bought my DM3200 in June of '09, I'd been lurking on the (original) DM/Tascam forum for a few months as well. By the time I was ready to 'fly the plane,' I already had a sense of where the controls were, so to speak. The experts who'd been using the consoles offered many helpful posts which made the learning curve that much shorter.

Long way of saying, if it weren't for this forum and its professional members, I'd probably still be wondering what happens when you push the 'Alt' button. :rolleyes::eek:

CaptDan
 
Hmmm...just "alt"? what happens when you push "alt+shift+control"?




Just kidding. That shuts the beast down. :p Took me at least 10 minutes of goofing around to figure that one out, lol.
 
Heh! :)

Sound on Sound's 2006 DM3200 reviewer put it this way:

"....The console emits grumbling remarks when it's not shut down in proper sequence....."

If that's the biggest issue, I'd say the unit is still a keeper. :)

CaptDan
 
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