M24 with tape recorder via MIDI sync

[jennyjewel]

Hi, I have a Model 24 that I would like to run with a tape recorder so that I could flexibly switch between the inputs on the two during a session. For instance, I would love to be able to record along to my M24 track on the tape recorder, then reset it and print that track to the M24, or to send a drum mix into the tape recorder and back again.

I have done this before in a studio running a tape recorder into a DAW, but I am wondering if I could do it with my Model 24, sans computer, by using MIDI sync and an outboard timecode device. From what I understand I would also need an outboard host device, like the Kenton USB MIDI host, in order to bypass the need for a computer. I am looking at the Yamaha MT4X tape recorder which has the ability to sync with MIDI timecode. The only part of this equation that I currently own is the Model 24.

Does this seem possible? Am I understanding this right? I am still somewhat new to recording but I have been working on a home studio centered around a computerless workflow and have long wanted to incorporate a four-track.

If you had any specific gear recommendations or ideas for how I might get this to work, I would be very interested, but first and foremost I just wanted to vet the idea with some people who might better understand it.

Thank you, and please let me know if I can help in any way!

 

[Logrinn]

I don’t believe that you can sync a tape recorder from an external source. The tape recorder needs to be the master I would imagine. And this will be a conundrum since the Model series can’t slave, they can only be Master devices themselves.
If anybody with access to a MT4X can chime in and confirm?

 

[Phil Tipping]

The MT4X was my first multi-track recorder way back You're right, it can only act as a sync master.

I am looking at the Yamaha MT4X tape recorder which has the ability to sync with MIDI timecode

Not sure where you saw this information. As far as I remember it does have a 'sync feature', but this just disables the dbx noise reduction system on track 4 so it doesn't interfere with the sync signal recording. You still need to provide those sync pulses from an external midi sync box. Once you've recorded the timing track, you play that track back through the midi sync box to generate the master midi time codes for all your slave devices.

 

[mattchee]

I know very little about this, but was captivated by this post enough to do a bunch of googling last night. Take this info for whatever it is worth.

When looking into the MT4X, I saw that someone referenced that the MT400 might do some sort of MIDI sync. I think it might be similar to what Phil described for the MT4X. The MT400 has a dedicated sync out I saw in pictures. The MT4X appears to have the sync out on the 4th track line out. However it does not appear that the MT400 has individual outs for the tracks - and I assume it would have to have the pulse record to one of the tracks no matter what (likely 4 or 1 to minimize bleed).

I also stumbled across a Tascam product called a MIDIStudio. Might be worth looking into.

 

[jennyjewel]

This is very helpful thank you all -- for reference, I got my information on the MT4X from its manual, which I am viewing here: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/196512/Yamaha-Mt4x.html?page=36#manual I think the core of the problem here, and I'll be the first to admit it, is that I don't entirely understand timecode or MIDI sync. I am just wondering if I can rig together these devices which I have a working knowledge of and would like to learn better.

Phil, forgive me but I'm not sure what the implication is there -- if I could get the sync pulses on and off of the MT4X wouldn't that effectively mean it would work?

I see in the manual for the Tascam 644 midistudio that it has the option to function as a master or slave device, and that it can work with an external synchronizer in order to sync with another tape machine. Given these capabilities, am I correct that a 644 would do the trick if my Model 24 only has the option to act as a master device?

 

[Phil Tipping]

Yes that's the correct manual; it describes how sync pulses can be recorded and played back on the MT4X. The method is the same for any recorder which can record analogue audio (this includes old-school tape machines and new-school digital machines like the DP-24/32SD), except that the MT4X has a special feature to disable the dbx noise reduction (on track 4). Noise reduction is useful with tapes to reduce background hiss so it's either on or off for all tracks (on the MT4X), but if you are using one of them to record sync pulses (which are just a series of fixed tones), the noise reduction can degrade them making it harder for the external sync box to decode them.

This important thing is that this sync feature does nothing special regarding synchronising the recorder itself; there is no link to the motor speed so it cannot be used as a slave.

These systems work by you first recording sync pulses/tones to one track; enough to encompass your whole song. Depending on how you wire it up, you can record your first audio track (to another track of course) at the same time if you like, but it's not necessary. This is the only time your external MIDI machine (drum, sequencer etc) acts as the master, as it's the MIDI time codes from this which are being converted to audio tones by the external sync box (e.g. Yamaha YMC-10 or Philip Rees TS-1) so they can be recorded onto the recorder.

Once you've recorded this master timing track, you switch all your MIDI devices to slave mode, and the recorder now acts as the master.

When you press play (or record for your next audio overdub), the track containing the sync pulses is fed back into the sync box which converts them back to MIDI time codes. These MIDI signals then go to one or more MIDI devices, and this controls their timing if they are in slave mode. Any audio from these devices can be recorded as overdubs, and everything will remain in sync.

This video shows an example, including an explanation as to why you cannot record MIDI messages directly.

 

[-mjk-]

And, at the end of the day, since you lose a track for the sync pulse, you have a 3 track recorder. So yeah, it's possible, by why on earth would you do that? You'd be better off with something like a uTrack 24.

 

[jennyjewel]

The most important thing I’m looking for here is fluidity between the M24 and a tape machine, in which case three tracks would generally be workable. Digital and tape in the same recording is something I’ve seen and enjoyed — It may seem odd but it’s something I feel committed to and okay about wanting.

I haven’t gotten the chance to yet but I’m going to investigate the Tascam 644 further, it looks like its ability to switch between a master / slave mode and its more advance midi capability might make it the most viable candidate for this. If anyone has any more insights into I would welcome them! And thanks everyone for the help so far.

 

[-mjk-]

@jennyjewel I get the reasons why you want to use tape. What I mean is, if I was going to all that trouble, I'd make it a 16 or 24 track machine and worth the headache to get the sync going. Or at least an 8 track. I have a 4 track and an analog console. I've never bothered to hook up the tape machine though, once I priced out recording tape.

 

[Mark Richards]

I've never bothered to hook up the tape machine though, once I priced out recording tape.

Ditto, mj. I ended up bulk erasing an old 15" reel of 3M/Scotch that didn't contain anything worth keeping.

I would have used one of my Ampex 456 Grand Master tapes, but everyone knows by now how Ampex screwed that up.

I only use my TASCAM 40-4 as an 80lb external FX for its analog sound (set to Input); tape saturation (set to Record/Norm); and tape delay (set to Record/Monitor). Portastudio hookup: Sends 1&2 returned to 2 portastudio Inputs, just like any other external FX.

(Sorry for going off-topic - maybe best discussed in the TASCAM Analog Forum section. )