Midi Jitter

[Jovian Patrick]

So up until now the model 12 has been the steadiest clock in my studio. But it still has some jitter, which may be my own routing.
I recently purchased a Roland sp404 mk2 and boy does it hate jitter. So I can actually get a slightly better clock out of ableton.. But I've yet to figure out how to get start in the DAW to start recording on the model 12. Any hints? I did read the whole manual but it's been a bit

 

[Max Relic]

@Jovian Patrick Jitter is the clock fluctuation in a digital bitstream, usually measured in a small percentage of the bitrate and certainly not measurable by human ear even in the relatively slow MIDI frame (rated at 32kbps). If you feel something is wrong in the timing of your MIDI equipment (> 20 ms) I would look for latency. Try to simplify instrument connections and avoid cascading (daisy-chains of MIDI IN->MIDI THRU->MIDI IN->MIDI TRHU...) that could introduce delay in the clock frame. Unfortunately the Model 12 can be clock master only and can't be slaved, so all the other equipment must synchronize to it. Enable MIDI clock source in Ableton preferences and in the main screen (it should be represented by a small coloured square something in the upper control bar), then the Model 12 transport will control Ableton.

sorry for being wordy

 

[Jovian Patrick]

Thank you for the reply. The sound source I'm having trouble with is wavering from 108-112 bpm when it should stay locked to 111. I have one of the outs on my midi interface specifically dedicated to the sampler. So it's not a long chain. I have much longer chains going
without issue.
The drift in Ableton is only from about 110.8-111.17 which isn't perceptible.
Apparently it's a finicky device so I've ordered some higher quality usb 3 a to c data cables to for the interface and the model 12 to see if this makes a difference. I might try a different trs adapter too as my research has indicated people have had better luck with Boss branded ones... But I'm skeptical this will help and it's not exactly conducive to creativity.
And while I'd want the tascam as my master clock, I was willing to try sending it a start clock signal but apparently that's not part of spec so the quest continues. I wonder if there's a hardware related reason or if it's something that could be added in firmware...
It seems roland are the ones dropping the ball here. As they have no forums I might have to reach out to their tech supoort
Have a magical, musical day!

 

[shredd]

@Jovian Patrick - sorry to put forth with no actual solution for you. But I read about your BPM drift, and I thought I'd pipe up with a "time" experience I had recently with small-factor MTR's, both Tascam and BOSS/Roland - that had nothing to do with MIDI. I brought it up in this thread.

 

[Max Relic]

Thank you for the reply. The sound source I'm having trouble with is wavering from 108-112 bpm when it should stay locked to 111. I have one of the outs on my midi interface specifically dedicated to the sampler. So it's not a long chain. I have much longer chains going
without issue.
The drift in Ableton is only from about 110.8-111.17 which isn't perceptible.
Apparently it's a finicky device so I've ordered some higher quality usb 3 a to c data cables to for the interface and the model 12 to see if this makes a difference. I might try a different trs adapter too as my research has indicated people have had better luck with Boss branded ones... But I'm skeptical this will help and it's not exactly conducive to creativity.
And while I'd want the tascam as my master clock, I was willing to try sending it a start clock signal but apparently that's not part of spec so the quest continues. I wonder if there's a hardware related reason or if it's something that could be added in firmware...
It seems roland are the ones dropping the ball here. As they have no forums I might have to reach out to their tech supoort
Have a magical, musical day!

I see, that's tempo drift. I had the same kind of annoyance when synchronizing Logic and Ableton to my Yamaha and Torso Electronics sequencers. One would think that modern digital devices should output a steady clock signal but something in the chain would cause the DAW interpret it in a wobbly way, and I find really annoying when the tempo indication drifts all the time. I don't think that a different cable will fix the problem but why not try? Anyway, currently the Model 12 doesn't respond to MIDI control messages, so I would use it as the master and let Ableton and all your MIDI equipment follow.
Have a nice day full of notes

 

[Jovian Patrick]

Hi Max & Shred,

I've written Roland about this as I've found numerous accounts of people experiencing similar problems. I realized it wasn't my setup or the Tascam, which has been the best clock yet for my external gear, but an actual bug in the sampler, when I plugged a good quality USB a to c cable directly from my computer to the sampler and got the same wobble.

My solution was to use the filter on my 3x3 midi router (CME U6 Pro) to only send clock start and stop and ignore the actual pulses. The timing on both units is pretty similar so I can play around for a few minutes before there's a slight offset. As the Roland allows fractional bpms I may record a kick from the sampler and another source on the 1 beat for a long stretch of time and see if I can fine tune the tempo on the Roland to stay in time even longer.
This technique should work for other equipment wobbly on sync, but if the internal clock itself is wobbly that's another headache unless it wobbles fairly consistently.
Some of my favorite albums like Caribou's Swim have lots of bits that fall in and out of time throughout the bar and it can add an organic feel but when it's really all over the place, it just sounds sloppy and is frustrating to work with.
Hopefully Roland will address the problem through firmware but they've updated lots of things and still, people were complaining a year ago and it isn't fixed.

 

[Max Relic]

You may record the SP404(II) on a Ableton track and apply quantize, would it work for you? Until Roland fixes the bug.

 

[Jovian Patrick]

Yes Max, this does work and I may use it from time to time, but as I like to change and modify patterns on the fly, I'd be missing out on a lot of the best reasons to own the unit, plus any human feel I've played in would be lost.
The sampler does support very long samples so I may see how I feel about a workflow where I record all my other gear into it and arrange from there. With its fairly robust editing abilities this could be fun, but it shouldn't be forced on me for something as simple as wonky clock reception.
Some days I just wish I'd learned the banjo

 

[Max Relic]

Ahaha! Lucky singers, they only need a wool scarf in winter
Anyway, I am certain you weighted the SP404 against similar equipment before buy, wasn't the Akai MPC Live an option?