Patching and routing in the studio (banging head against wall)

[Labrynth]

Studio opening in two weeks. I've drawn and redrawn wiring schematics to give me the best options for flexibility and not having to go behind the desk. It's a 10 ft custom argosy to hold both my DM4800s, computer, and 12 space rack. So when it comes to my patch bay setup I have many options. For anyone who has dual 4800s you guys know how awesome the routing can be. So I have 4 1/4" 24 channel patch bays. I won't take up 3 pages with my outboard gear but it's a lot. I will be lining patch bays with 24 channels of insert points and separate bays To hold the said fx and just patch as needed. I will also be using another patch bay for the AUX sends/returns so I can have flexibility with outboard gear or monitoring as I need it. The issue comes into play with my preamps. Avalon 737, La610mkii, ADL600, etc. What I really want the ability to do is just use them at the insert point on the board and leave my snake plugged into the XLR input. In doing that, what problems do you guys see me running into. Phantom power shouldn't be an issue because the board will provide it and I'll turn it off on the preamp but my concern would be the line level being able to handle the load of a preamp through an insert point. But if I permanent wire the preamps to channels and then decide a drum track session doesn't need them then I'm screwed with my snake layout. I'm very meticulous on my wiring and check three times with the snake. But I have assistant engineers and I want them to be able to look, see it says kick on the snake and in pro tools pull up kick on my pre made pro tools I/O layout. No confusion, no problems. I know this is a long rant but I have recorded in studio where it took hours to set up a session and as a client I just wanted to leave because of it feeling in professional. But anyway. What options do I have to without permanently wiring preamps to use a patch bay like system to route preamps to channels on the tascam without disrupting the snake layout. Thanks

 

[Labrynth]

Also I want to have access to the "LA2A" like optical compressor in the 610 on mix downs

 

[TascMan]

I was just writing to you in the patchbay thread. Using the analog cards would be perfect for you. You have one slot for your FW to protools, leaving you 7(!) bays, between your two 4800s, for other things, like the analog cards. You wouldn't have to worry about patching your preamps through the board's return insert points. Using the analog card is perfect for running your preamps directly into the board.

 

[Labrynth]

So with that could I plug my mics into the boards XLR inputs and route through the analog cards or do I have to plug mics into the preamp and then out of the preamp back into the analog cards?

 

[Labrynth]

Another question. The tascam IF-AN24 card. It's around $1200 but says it's 24 channels. Is that something worth looking into? And the X24 or X48? Any benefit of them?

 

[Drumstruck]

Sounds like a great setup Labrynth - looking forward to some photos or website link .

The analog cards are a great upgrade for your DM - I have 2 in my DM4800 - both (will) connect to a DB25/TRS patchbay via DB25 cables, then patch into various vintage outboard via a Combo/XLR patchbay. With this setup I can use the outboard (pres) independent of the DM pres and can also use them as Buss or channel inserts.

fyi the IF-AN24 card is for the x48. You need the IF-AN/DM for your DM4800s - these are an 8 channel card. Sorry if I'm repeating what you already know.

I had an x48 for a while - it was a bit noisy (even after I swapped the HD for an SSD) courtesy of a large fan. It's a good way to leverage your TDIF ports though. imo the x24 is too old and limited to be of much use nowadays.

 

[Labrynth]

I didn't know the ad24 was only for the X48. I just saw an option to have 24 rather than 8. Thank you for clearing that up for me. The huge question, and I'm sorry if you answered it andI missed the answer, can I plug my snake into the DM4800 inputs and route internally the an card with my preamps hooked up and the mic signal go through them or does my snake from the live room need to plug into the AN card or preamps?

 

[Labrynth]

Will this work with my API 500 series lunch box? The db25

 

[Drumstruck]

The IF-AN/DM is a line level input card, so you'll need to have your external pres bring the mic signal up to line level. Or you can use it as line level I/O for your outboard as soft inserts (via the routing screens). Or you can use it for alternative auxilliaries..... You can route out of one IF-AN/DM card and back into the same card or into another card or even into the channel line inputs..... extremely versatile. It should work fine with your lunchbox - just using a DB25 - DB25 cable.

 

[Labrynth]

Thanks so much. Ordering it now! I'm excited to learn new routing on the DMs

 

[Labrynth]

I'll post pics of the studio as soon as I get the argosy desk and put it together. Fingers crossed May 23rd. I will also include a PDF with gear and wiring schematic. Also in case anyone decides to get a second dm4800 the cascade cables (PW1000CS) are discontinued. I had Tom at cables for less dot com build me one. With my desk the cable needed to be a little longer so we upgraded to thicker gage mogami wire and extended it to 6 feet. It was about $100 USD.

 

[TascMan]

Original question...

So with that could I plug my mics into the boards XLR inputs and route through the analog cards or do I have to plug mics into the preamp and then out of the preamp back into the analog cards?

This question intrigued me. Could you plug a mic into the DM's XLR input, then send that out via the insert SEND into your analog card? So I tried it and, of course, it works. I don't have any idea why you would do this, but yes, this will work.

If you are plugging your mic into one of the DM's board preamps, the internal routing of that signal takes the low level mic signal, amplifies it to line level via the Channel gain knob, then it sends that new line level analog signal out through the insert SEND, through a closed loop, and back in from the insert RETURN, and then the board digitizes it from there. All routing inside the DMs are digital. So, the mic signal is at line level at the Channel's insert SEND. If you wanted to SEND that to your analog card input, that does work. But, there really is no reason why you would do this. You are not gaining anything here as the signal is immediately digitized after both the insert returns or within the analog card INs. Both are pretty much the same specs, from what I remember.

Not to mention, when you take the insert's SEND and rout it somewhere else, you are breaking the closed insert loop. So, on the channel you have the mic plugged into, you will no longer have any signal.

 

[Labrynth]

Now I'm super confused. I've worked in million dollar studios(as intern or assistant) I was never privy to the set up of the studio. But my boss, the lead engineer, would tell me to patch in the Manley VoxBox or Avalon 737 preamps. I would scoot to the patch bay, and patch it in to whatever channel we needed it on. Now this was with a bantam TT and using a Neve monster board. Is this not able to happen on the DM because it's digital or some other reason

 

[Labrynth]

Also my boards are in their boxes at the moment until the desk gets here so I can't really chase down routing till then

 

[Labrynth]

I just re read your post Tascman. Sorry it's early for me. If the digitizing happens after the insert return will my preamp function(color,eq,compression) if I just patch it through the insert point on the channel. If that works, awesome! My concern being that at some point or several the connection stops being balanced. Even with balanced patch cables the patch bay itself is not balanced being that it travels two directions. I just don't want to waste 8 slots on my board and snake for preamps then more when I get them and definitely do not want to crawl behind the desk. I'm not opposed to double gain staging and the DM preamps are very transparent . Sorry I'm coming from all analogue and bantam in prewired and set up studios to starting my first commercial studio from ground Zero

 

[TascMan]

OK, didn't mean to confuse you . When you say "Patch in" the expensive preamps, what you are really doing is taking the mic signal, post Neve board preamp, via a line level out signal, and running it into and out of an expensive preamp, although you are already at line level, and not really preamping anything. You are, however, running that line level signal through the analog circuits within the expensive pres, so maybe there is something to that. But I would say that it was the Neve board pres that were doing the real amping of the mic signal.

 

[TascMan]

BTW, you certainly can do the same thing with the DMs, if you wanted to. But, I would run your mic DIRECTLY into the mic input on the expensive pres, then send that line level signal into a channel on your analog card, into the DM, and route as necessary.

 

[TascMan]

Sorry, we are posing on top of eachother. I am going to read and reply to that last one in a few minuets.

 

[TascMan]

I gotta make sure I am reading this right....

...If the digitizing happens after the insert return will my preamp function(color,eq,compression) if I just patch it through the insert point on the channel.

By "preamp", I assume a you are referring to an external preamp. So, just to clarify, you want to know if you can send a line level out from an external preamp and send it into a DM channel on the board? YES. but you don't need to use the channel insert return for this, just use that channel's line IN for that.

If you are thinking that you want to plug your mic into the DM's XLR input, then send that out to the expensive preamp, then return it back into that DM channel, then yes, that would work as well. However, that DM's channel gain will come first, right after the XLR input. That gain will have the DM's preamp sound along with it, sending out to your expensive preamp to run through it's circuits and back into the DM's same channel. (BTW, the DM's pres are very clean with plenty of headroom, so there really is no particular sound on them--what comes in goes out) Not to mention, the insert lines are unbalanced, so noise may or may not be an issue here.

Again, for your case, I would plug what ever mic you want to go through your expensive preamp directly into that pre, amp it, eq, comp, whatever, then go out to either a DM channel line in, or an assign return channel, or a channel on the analog card.

 

[TascMan]

OK, Next...

Even with balanced patch cables the patch bay itself is not balanced being that it travels two directions. I just don't want to waste 8 slots on my board and snake for preamps then more when I get them and definitely do not want to crawl behind the desk. I'm not opposed to double gain staging and the DM preamps are very transparent . Sorry I'm coming from all analogue and bantam in prewired and set up studios to starting my first commercial studio from ground Zero

Your patch bay is not balanced? The whole thing? That sucks. The insert cable is certainly not balanced, and therefore wouldn't be, even in a balanced patch bay anyway, which gives more credit to using the line IN on the DM channel you want to use. The Line ins are balanced.