Recording through mixer vs. direct into PortaStudio?

[-mjk-]

Hey man, there is nothing stupid about having your gear blow up and having to reconfigure. I'm just glad that nothing catastrophic happened that took out the DP when it died.

If you had everything on the patch bay then you could just pull the cables going to/from the mixer and still have access to the DP and other gear through the bay. In the end its actually easier to reconfigure once you are past the pain of the initial setup.

 

[shredd]

Hey man, there is nothing stupid about having your gear blow up and having to reconfigure. I'm just glad that nothing catastrophic happened that took out the DP when it died.
If you had everything on the patch bay then you could just pull the cables going to/from the mixer and still have access to the DP and other gear through the bay. In the end its actually easier to reconfigure once you are past the pain of the initial setup.

You're right...gear fails, just like any other electronics product...
And I'm HUGELY fortunate it didn't fry anything in my DP, or the work I have on it. The GOOD news is that, with the DP's computer-friendly file system, I have EVERYTHING backed up on the studio iMac...so even if I hadda buy a whole new DP, I coulda just reloaded it. OR gone back to my 2488neo!

Your point about having everything set up on a patch-bay (so that if one piece flames out, you just pull it out of the chain) is well-taken.
As I've mentioned along the way in this discussion: I do feel like setting up with a patch-bay is in the cards as my studio size/equipment/capabilities evolve. I'm just not there yet - and it's becoming clear that working a patchbay into the setup requires a good bit of design/planning, to have it do what my needs/intentions require.​

 

[Brody]

Right now I have a simple one-man band recording project, but even then I get huge mileage out of a patchbay. I doubt anyone who ever bought one would regret it. You can get an 8-point one from ART for $65 or a full rack-sized for ~$130 (the Samson seems to have the best reputation).

The biggest benefit of a patchbay IME is "moving" the ports from behind everything to right up in front of me. There they are, right on top of the desk where I work. This is a huge lifesaver. Otherwise I'd spend half my time fishing around behind it all. Or under it all. Some of the direct out jacks on my bass and guitar gear is both back and underneath. With the ports right up in front of me, plugging in and out is barely an afterthought, which really helps the tracking process flow more smoothly.

The biggest problem this solves is how to connect sources into tracks. On the DP-03 I use, there's only two tracks, but there are four inputs: mic-in, line-in for each track. Vocals should run to the mic-in and I flip the switch to mic. Everything else (drum machine, synth, bass, guitar) uses the line-in's and I flip to line. The old process was so many steps: fish around behind the DP-03 and unplug whatever was plugged into the DP-03 last, now fish around behind or under (or both) the source and plug some cables in there (and don't get me started on accidentally plugging into the wrong place), then run those cables over and fish around behind the DP-03 again to plug those cables into the appropriate jacks.

With the patchbay, I have all these things wired up to the patchbay already, and it's just like an old-school phone operator: Take the patch cable that goes to the appropriate DP-03 input, unplug the other side, and re-plug it into the patchbay port coming from the given source. Done.

This also has a hidden side-effect of not wearing out the ports on your gear by the way. Patchbays are cheap, relative to buying new gear or paying to have new ports wired into them.

Onto the mixing stage. There are things during mixing like, "I wonder how it would sound if I ran this track through a tube screamer and brought it in parallel" that, before the patchbay, I would just be like, "sounds like too much work," and now after having it, I'm like "hell that's easy let's try it." And I can cycle through a few options in very little time this way.

And those are just the key benefits.

 

[shredd]

And those are just the key benefits.

GREAT rundown.
I think it's clear enough - from one-man-band home guys like @Brody to hardcores like @Arjan P et al...seems like everyone is reaping convenience/benefits from using patch bay/s.

It's still my perception that the important part is knowing precisely what you want your p/b to do; what's going to be going into/out of it; and what your needs/intentions are...and THAT helps you choose the hardware.
That's sort of my problem - I'm sort of "routing-challenged" - so I can't exactly figure out what they hay I want/need it/them to do. My studio is pretty simple compared to the hard-cores, but definitely complicated enough that this is hard to figure out.

I called my Sweetwater guy to have him ask Rupert N to stop over with Miller Lite and Taco Bell to help me figure it out...and found out he passed away not long ago!!!

 

[shredd]

I'm sort of "routing-challenged"

This is no joke.
I was browsing SWater tonight, looking through all the patch bays.
I understand what they do...but for the life of me, I was looking at them and had NO IDEA what I'd need/want/use/benefit from.
I can't tell whether I'd want TRS's or XLR's; what the different 'modes' are; 'reversing', 'normal', half-normal', blahblahblah...and how does a DB connector do anything (nothing, in my studio!)...so many things I didn't understand, let alone have any idea how to apply to my studio. I've studied wiring diagrams/block charts, and it's still reading the chinese-language schematics to a communications satellite.

I swear - it was like trying to explain how guitar intonation works to somebody who thinks a "tuning fork" is used for eating Chicken Of the Sea from a can.
As a musician, stewpydity is a real obstacle to accomplishing stuff!!!

 

[BazzBass]

it's not stewpidity at all, playing and recording music is a continual learning process. From learning music theory, to playing, to learning how to record and mix, not to say learning how to use complex gear is nothing to be frowned upon. It's a lot of work and a lot of knowledge to be learnt. Don't under-estimate your talents

 

[-mjk-]

@shredd, that Behringer model that I mentioned should suit you well. The hit is the XLRs though. As long as you have some kind of external mic pre then you can skip using the XLR inputs on the DP and just use the Line inputs for everything - and connect them to the batchbay.

If you must use an XLR (or more) then I suggest keeping cables plugged into them and marking the other end and keeping those out in front so you can find them easily.

 

[shredd]

@@shredd, that Behringer model that I mentioned should suit you well

THANKS M.J. - appreciate the info/coaching. Maybe you n Alan Parsons could stop over later w/some PBR's and donuts, and we could plan this out?!?

I think I've got that part understood - that a p/b w/XLR's would do wonders for mic'ing - "any mic to any input" sort of thing, just by popping a few connecters in/out. KEWL. (although I DON'T have and external mic-pre; I get 48V from either the mixer, the DP's inputs, or my TC-Elex's vocal processor's input.
What I DON'T understand: what about all the gear/sources that requires TS or TRS? I have plenny of that too. Instruments, FX units, outboard processors...

Could that mean I might be using TWO p/bays - one for XLR's, one for TRS's??? Yikes...

 

[-mjk-]

Sorry @shredd, I don't know Alan P. Would Todd R do?

Planning it all out is the key to doing it right though.

For this discussion "XLR = mic input and "Line" = 1/4"/6.8'' TRS/TS

If you need to swap XLR/Line across all inputs, then, for your purposes it really wouldn't make much sense to have a patchbay because with a combo jack, its one or the other, but not both. If a device has separate XRL and Line inputs then you can keep all those permanently connected to a patchbay and plug what you need into the patchbay to feed the appropriate source.

But, unless you need to use all of the inputs, all the time, and be able to change between Line and XLR sources you should be able to leave several of the Line inputs permanently connected to the patchbay and a few of the XLRs with cables left plugged in all the time (per my previous post). For me as a solo performer in my own studio I only use 2 inputs at a time, max.

As for the outboard gear, their I/O connections go to the patchbay too and then you just patch cables between ports on the bay to connect them to/from other equipment. You can also easily daisy-chain processing too, like EQ and compression that way.

 

[Phil Tipping]

I only use 1/4" patchbays, and these all operate at line level. I read somewhere it's not recommended mixing mic & line levels on the same patchbay so if you're going to buy an XLR one and use it exclusively for mics, having 2 rows of 24 might be overkill.
Re. line-level XLR vs TRS, if the device has both, standardising on TRS-to-TRS cables makes it easy to swap things around when/if you re-design the studio. If it only has XLR, you can use XLR-to-TRS cables. If you're into DIY, making custom cables can save you a lot of money.
The issues which caused me the most headaches at the start were deciding balanced vs unbalanced and -10 vs +4 signal levels. Some gear can cater for all combinations, but if they don't, you may have to think things through. Either way, once you've set them up, patch bays are invaluable

 

[Arjan P]

I was browsing SWater tonight, looking through all the patch bays. I understand what they do...but for the life of me, I was looking at them and had NO IDEA what I'd need/want/use/benefit from.

@shredd I'd say patch bays are especially useful for the routingly challenged people among us. You or we need to figure out what your needs are and from there I'm sure some of us could recommend one to you. Or tell you none is needed..

So the most important question IMO is: what are the connections to the PortaStudio you keep changing around most?

 

[shredd]

Sorry @shredd, I don't know Alan P. Would Todd R do?

No prob. I've spent the day today taking LSD and channeling George Martin Sr.; we'll get it worked out...

ANYway...what I really mean to say is THANKS GUYS - all of ya - for the input and advice. I'm learning a lot, about what p/bays do and don't do, and what I'd use it for, and whether or not I really need to expand my studio design in this area, for what my needs/wants are.

@Arjan P has the best question - "what are the connections to the PortaStudio you keep changing around most?"
I think if I were to begin the discussion on my wants/needs, I'd point out that the ORIGINAL post here, by me, was "do you connect your stuff to a mixer -> PortaStudio, or directly?".
I'm in the "mixer" school, and RARELY if ever connect stuff directly to P/Studio.
In reality, I don't really do a lot of plugging/unplugging at this point, though it would make experimenting/changing gear paths easier.

The reason/s I consider patchbay/s is PRIMARILY about the ability to insert various outboard devices where and when I want (without doing the cable-swapping dance!): specifically, DBX266XL compr/gate; my Roland rack-mount FX (GP-16); and the occasional use of one of my vocal-harmonizers (TC-Elex and VocalistLive5), although I haven't even TRIED that yet - just read about others doing it.
And, of course, as my mic-stable grows, there's the desire to quickly change mic/s to compare results (for example, using different SDC pairs to X-Y an acoustic - I have different pairs - or different vocal mic's).

So - it seems my wants/needs aren't terribly clearly defined yet; AND the need/necessity to even do the p/bay approach is sort of up in the air!!!

 

[shredd]

Behringer Ultra Max Pro PX2000. It has a diagram on the top of it that graphically depicts the 4 modes: Parallel, Half-Normalled, Normalled and Open.

Looks pretty good...the current version of this is TRS-based, and pretty affordable.
Part I can't figure out: this doesn't help me with mic (XLR) cables at all, does it?!?

 

[shredd]

Behringer Ultra Max Pro PX2000. It has a diagram on the top of it that graphically depicts the 4 modes: Parallel, Half-Normalled, Normalled and Open.

Or for some reason - would it be better to have the TS version, NOT a TRS version as they're made now???

 

[dctdct]

...In reality, I don't really do a lot of plugging/unplugging at this point, though it would make experimenting/changing gear paths easier.
The reason/s I consider patchbay/s is PRIMARILY about the ability to insert various outboard devices where and when I want (without doing the cable-swapping dance!)...

Exactly my thing.
Since I bought a Echo/Drive/Filter device (Erica Synths Zen Delay) I'm very happy I can change the route of whatever signals I want in seconds, before it goes back to the input path to my DP.

 

[Arjan P]

The reason/s I consider patchbay/s is PRIMARILY about the ability to insert various outboard devices where and when I want (without doing the cable-swapping dance!): specifically, DBX266XL compr/gate; my Roland rack-mount FX (GP-16); and the occasional use of one of my vocal-harmonizers (TC-Elex and VocalistLive5), although I haven't even TRIED that yet - just read about others doing it.

I would say, start with a simple 16- or 24-channel TRS patch bay to try it out; TRS to keep all signals balanced and hopefully noise-free. TS patch bays would IMO be best used for physical TRS mixer inserts (where the signals are usually unbalanced).

And, of course, as my mic-stable grows, there's the desire to quickly change mic/s to compare results (for example, using different SDC pairs to X-Y an acoustic - I have different pairs - or different vocal mic's).

I don't really see the point of XLR patch bays other than having the flexibility to change one mic going to different inputs. Trying different mics on the same input is much simpler by unplugging mic A and using the same cable to connect mic B. Another drawback coud be that by using a P/B plus the extra cables and connections, you'll introduce extra noise on an already weak signal.

Whatever you do, don't use a TRS patch bay for mic signals, even though TSR and XLR are both balanced. Chances are you will one day forget to switch off phantom power and make nasty short circuits...

I just realized that the PortaStudio's combined XLR/TRS connections could very much complicate the use of a patch bay.. But since you use a mixer inbetween anyway it may not be a big deal. For others I'd say it would be best to keep some channels for XLR and others for TRS use with a patch bay

 

[shredd]

I would say, start with a simple 16- or 24-channel TRS patch bay to try it out; TRS to keep all signals balanced and hopefully noise-free. TS patch bays would IMO be best used for physical TRS mixer inserts (where the signals are usually unbalanced).

Thanks @Arjan P - as always, a TROVE of helpful info.
I think I'm sort of homing in on what a p/bay might do for my setup, and figuring out how I'd want to implement it.
I think you're right - TRS would be more suitable for my primary aims...XLR's being mostly about mic's makes that simpler. And for all my painfully vast studio ignorance, I can honestly say I have NEVER fried a mic or device with +48V!!! (knock on wood)...so when it comes to mic-swapping, I imagine I'll just do it the ol'-fashioned way - swapping cables!

My next question/s: TRS vs. TS.
As you mentioned, there ARE numerous connections that are unbalanced/TS (FX's & other outboard gear; mixer or PortaStudio send/returns, yada)...there are some that ARE balanced, and would obviously benefit from having balanced/TRS cables...
AND the connections that are only TS/unbalanced capable can't be harmed by having a TRS cable in it, right?

At @-mjk- 's suggestion - I'm considering this one as a starter...seems pretty versatile in terms of config/setup.

 

[BazzBass]

I use both xlr and 1/4 inch inputs into my 32sd, so rather than a patchbay I just bought some 1 foot extension cables to bring the inputs to the side of the desk,making it easier to access them.

couldn't find combo jacks on them though.

 

[shredd]

rather than a patchbay I just bought some 1 foot extension cables to bring the inputs to the side of the desk,making it easier to access them.

When I thought about the aspect of p/bays that means no diving behind/under equipment to make/move connections, I considered this - perhaps even a short, small-capacity snake to bring everything right up front.
But I like the versatility of a p/bay...leaving gear plugged in on the back, and plugging whatever you want running to it from the front...might haveta examine both solutions, to see which will do what I want, easiest...

 

[Arjan P]

My next question/s: TRS vs. TS.
As you mentioned, there ARE numerous connections that are unbalanced/TS (FX's & other outboard gear; mixer or PortaStudio send/returns, yada)...there are some that ARE balanced, and would obviously benefit from having balanced/TRS cables...
AND the connections that are only TS/unbalanced capable can't be harmed by having a TRS cable in it, right?

Yes, you can certainly connect unbalanced signals/cables to a TRS patch bay, the sleeve will simply have two contact points ISO one.. Maybe something else to consider before getting a patch bay is that you'll need to buy (or much better, make) connecting cables. I soldered a lot of XLR to TRS cables to go from outboard gear - many units only have XLR ins and outs - to the patch bays.