Staying the course with the DM

Gravity Jim

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I've spent the last few weeks evaluating gear, balancing options, and generally getting ready to reconfigure my studio as an ITB system. I've examined every argument pro and con, and took each point seriously. As these points cancelled each other out, three in favor of keeping the DM were all that was left:

1. I own it (no expense required, none of the pain of selling gear, etc)
2. I know how it works and how to use it (no training required, no surprises)
3. I know it sounds good (no changing known techniques to get good results with a new signal path)

So, I'm still a committed DM user, and will be hanging around again under my old handle. (Please, try to curb your enthusiasm.) :rolleyes:
 
Glad to see you back Jim. Good choice to keep the DM!
 
Hi Jim,

Thanks for bringing this up.
Like you, I'm continually seeking new solutions for my studio.
The DM is getting a little long in the tooth, but it remains the cornerstone for me.
Thanks to you and Jamsire, I'm now automating all of the physical faders and pans and other info to and from my DAW.
This is really fun!
Could easily be done ITB, but I sure like grabbing the faders on the channels I'm editing.
It's like a big living breathing connection to the sound.
Finally bumped up to 88.2 and I'm very happy.
Now if I could just get my eyes to focus on the tiny screen.... 'glasses denial alert'...

But seriously, thanks for all of your great posts.
Keep the faith!

A toast to Captain Dan!
I'm sure he'd be offering encouragement and enlightenment.
 
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A toast to Captain Dan indeed.

Thanks for the encouraging words, too. Waterstrum, I bought my DM as what appeared to be the best solution to going 24/96. The difference in tracking and mixing was huge. Like I say, I know it sounds good.
 
I salute your decision Jim - this board is all I would ever need.

As you were.
 
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I also had the same conversation with myself for the past 2-years. I'm keeping my DM-4800 & IFFW MKII for now, but have also upgraded. Since I mix much more than I record these days, I don't really need much of what the DM-4800 offers. I have a but load of high end outboard and thus it is extremely rare that I use the channel inputs, mic pre's, FAT channel or the built in effects.

I now have 4-UAD Apollo units for total ITB when I need that without the 32-ASIO limitation of the IFFW card but also have the Apollo ADAT's connected to the DM-4800. Both the DM-4800 & Apollo analog are wired to TT patchbay for access to all my outboard. All 3 DM-4800 TDIF go to digital effects (TC, Lexicon, Eventide) via Tascam TDiF to AES converters.

One nice thing about the DM-4800 besides having decent 24-faders available at one time is that even when using the Apollo units as the main audio interface, I don't have have to disconnect or reconnect the ADAT or the TDIF to AES converters as DM-4800 allows flexible in to out routing capability. I also get to use UAD plugs in realtime and via DAW as well for much better A2D & D2A.

A few things that REALLY bother me about the DM-4800 is poorly laid out ergonomics, the continuing issues with the SD card reader, lack of anything other than the most basic DAW integration, DAW limitations of the over priced meter bridge, being stuck to only bank 8- channels at a time which is a total pain the ass with 24-faders and the lack of overall development for modern audio recording requirements. But I may have higher than average expectations as both a recording/mixing engineer and a pro audio developer that easily notices the weak spots and the product potential.

I'm also now heavily into hardware & software pro audio development for touchscreen support as that is the next pro audio frontier. By the time that touchscreen has matured a bit and DAW software supports it, the DM-4800 will likely be kicked to the curb as obsolete in my workflow.
 
In the end, it's all about the ears, not about the gear. Since no one can tell what effects products I use, my ears are the money maker. My DM4800 has actually saved me money. Love, love it, love it.
 
In the end, it's all about the ears, not about the gear.

Ya, that's right it is. And to my ears and to my clients ears, the high end effects I have and use are far superior compared to the mediocore sounding effects & DSP in the DM mixer. Money that was and is very well spent on gear in my world. The majority of those effects I have had even before I bought the DM-4800. More than few dozen projects over the past few years I have specifically been able to book because of I have and know how to use those expensive gear effects.

Happy to hear your so satisfied.
 
Well - same here, and I DO have VERY high end outboard gear. I am not "satisfied", I am working in a manner that I still know for a fact that the consumer - the end listener of the final product, the person that hopefully buys the music, still can't tell if I masterfully used my Lexicon 960 L, the WaveArts Master Reverb plugin, or the DM TC reverb. No comparison - obviously, but my point is goes back to Jim's original comment - I know the board sounds good and as long as it lasts, so will I.

I have looked at other systems, setups, etc., and I quite honestly can't find a better setup than what I have - and I'm a long standing Pro Tools instructor/ trainer etc. Every time I go to NAMM, I look for better consoles in this price range, up to $5K. Strangely enough, people seem to love the Presonus Studio Live console and the Behringer X32. We have both at the college and my students love both - I tend to just "do my job."

I was never an ITB mixer, I like to hear the mixes as they go down the pipe into my Masterlink - like the old days. I even watched a video series on it once to see if it was the way for me to go. In the end, OTB is still my choice. The only thing I have upgraded in my workflow is mixing in STEMS. After watching Bruce Swedien's video where he did it on old DA88's, I was a changed man. Incorporating the outboard gear through the analog cards and busses helps me realize the stems better.

The only thing I never understood in the early day of having this board was how people on the forum mentioned they were mixing ITB and only using TWO channels for playback in the DM4800 - I still don't get that. IDK, the board sounds great, the MIDI implementation is huge, and sonically - it's gorgeous. I know I sound crazy, but I really want to pair it up with X48MKII. THEN - I will be a solid music making, Pro Tools-less, machine.

Audiowave, if you do have some other mixers in that price range that you know of - please send me a PM. I'd like see what else is out there that I just don't know about. School is starting soon and it would be nice to share this info with some of my more advanced students and provide them with as many options as possible.
 
Ya, that's right it is. And to my ears and to my clients ears, the high end effects I have and use are far superior compared to the mediocore sounding effects & DSP in the DM mixer. Money that was and is very well spent on gear in my world. The majority of those effects I have had even before I bought the DM-4800. More than few dozen projects over the past few years I have specifically been able to book because of I have and know how to use those expensive gear effects.

Happy to hear your so satisfied.

Oh, yeah. I remember you.

Did I say I was processing everything through DM? I'm not. You want to hear what I do on my console? You're welcome to visit my website. Unlike most interwebz experts, my work isn't just something I describe.... it's available for anyone to hear, as millions of iDevice gamers already have.
 
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I went through something very similar not that long ago. I decided to retire my aging DM24 and MOTU rig and moved to a mostly ITB solution -- I put out some decent $$ for a UAD Apollo Twin Duo and a UAD Satellite Octo core. I still on occasion needed more inputs so tried out a couple different ADAT based units (which I wasn't happy with), then decided to un-retire my DM24 as it was a better I/O unit than the rack mount pres that I tested out ... and then I came across a good deal on a DM-3200 ...

So now I'm going the hybrid route. I'm still doing mostly ITB with the DM-3200 as a fancy 16 channel preamp and control surface. I do absolutely LOVE the UAD effects (and own quite a few of the plugins now) and I don't see my mind changing in that direction, but for the $$ I paid for this unit it's completely worth it for me. The pres are fine, the control is great and it works very well as a control surface. Super happy with the decision. Next up will be an Argosy for this once I move into my new house in 3 more months ... I seriously considered building one for myself (which I did with my DM24) but decided that I would rather spend my time using the gear instead of building furniture for it!

P.S. Nice to see another DP user around here Jim, I've seen you on motunation as well (another board I haven't frequented for a long long time but now that I'm back into the swing of things I'll probably be around there more often too)
 
I'm Mr. Hybrid. I do almost all my processing ITB, although I do have some outboard and hardware synths I really like, and then almost all level and pan automation in the DM. Love DP, really love the sound I'm getting.
 
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I think I may make a video about my process - sounds like it may be interesting to some members.
 
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I have a buddy who swears by the automation on the DM consoles as well .. I've honestly never tried using it for much of anything as I've done my automation in DP for a long time before I owned a DM based console and never looked back.

So DP9 seems to be working out ok for you so far? I'm not going to make the plunge for a while yet, I just got DP8 all tweaked up the way I like it and there's honestly not much in DP9 that has me that excited to upgrade -- the guitar/bass stuff doesn't do much for me and neither does the 1176 plugin (since I already have UAD versions that are nicer) ... I might hold out for 10.

I'm Mr. Hybrid. I do almost all my processing ITB, although I do have some outboard and hardware synths I really like, and then almost all level and pan automation in the DM. Love DP, really love the sound I'm getting.

Actually a question on your workflow then ... so you're doing all the plugins and the like ITB but then just going out to the DM-3200 for final volumes and pan sort of stuff? Do you mixdown to stems/subgroups on the DM-3200 as well? I've been just using the control surface stuff so far but this also sounds like it could work out for me if I went to using the automation on the DM desk ... hmmm. Since I'm learning "new tricks" it might be a good time to learn more of them!
 
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I just got DP8 all tweaked up the way I like it and there's honestly not much in DP9 that has me that excited to upgrade

Hi there. I'm not a DP user myself, but I am stern believer in not "running to get upgrades" if you are making the music you want to make and it's coming out perfectly. Freezing systems is something I firmly believe in.
 
Yep especially for production gear. That said I'm not doing any paid production in my setup these days so I don't mind going out on a limb now and then ... but it depends. There's a couple cool new things in the latest release of DP but nothing that I consider essential so I'll probably save the money and time and just wait.
 
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Audiowave, if you do have some other mixers in that price range that you know of - please send me a PM. I'd like see what else is out there that I just don't know about.

No, not off the top of my head that are meant specially for studio recording that would be what most would consider in a a reasonable price range. I do know of 3-4 companies in the Definition development stage of hybrid digital Mixer and control surface but I can really talk about specifics. 2 of those companions over the past few months are now very reluctant to really take the development past the Definition stage as their Marketing data is not showing a solid return on the investment that would be required to do the development or can afford to assign the necessary dedicated resources the time required compared to other higher priority products on their roadmap that they want and need to develop.

Digital mixers are all the rage selling for the Live FOH and House of Worship market as they offer smaller footprint, less weight, all in one features for DSP effects, flexible I/O and mixing and fancy lLED's and LCD displays compared to their aging analog consoles but these are things not wanted or needed in the more commercial pro audio professional market. Plain and simple, there is no longer the requirement to have to have a dedicated hardware mixer to connect microphones, speakers or any other gear like you had to have in the past.

It is very unlikely that there will be many, if any, newly designed mid priced digital mixers such as the DM-4800 in the non Live Sound market any more as that market has for the most part dried up. The multi-channel audio interface market and Control Surface market have taken over that market share. Many to most that even have a DM-3200 or DM-4800 seem to only be using them more as an ITB Control Surface than they are for their true mixer functions because there is whole in the market for 16+ motorized fader Control Surfaces.

Beyond the next generation of audio interfaces, much of the future of Pro audio product development is in the Control Surface and Touchscreen product markets where there is more profit potential and the product concept to market development cycle is much quicker and can be better matched or customized to the pace of change then the complicated multi-year development cycle of what hardware digital mixers require.

I myself coming from old school background still prefer a Console with flying faders and also have been been hybrid since I left 24-Track tape. 32-Ch ADAT and then 48-Ch E-MU Darwin (ADAT hard drive way before Alesis HD24) in the rear view mirror. But since getting heavy into UAD over the past few years, that has tempted me into just ITB for some lower budget & quick turn projects as well as projects that I knew would have several back and forth versions pretty much forcing ITB recall and that has worked out very well. Much better than first expected. And incorporating a touch-screen has made it pretty sweet and desirable. I sttill prefer real hardware faders overall, but I now have both to choose from. The instant fully recall capability along with he touchscreen is powerfully seductive and time saving and has very good workflow. Once the DAW makers fully support touchscreen, it will have great workflow.

So while I still have gobs of great high end outboard wired up ready to go to choose from and prefer the sound and reaching over and using it over using plugs, I no longer HAVE to use or rely on using outboard at all as I used too to still get great sounding results.
 
Gerk:

Yeah, DP9 is working great. I think there's more going on under the hood in the update than there are whiz-bang features, although some of the productivity enhancements are great for me.

My workflow is dynamic: I work differently if I'm producing radio than I do when I'm composing from scratch. But for the most part, when I'm making music; I'll do a lot of processing ITB... I may run 3 or four tracks of bass guitar, one clean, one distorted, one delayed or slightly chorused... and mix them into a single mono bass stem before sending it out to the DM. Same with synth textures, strings, drums, etc. So at mix down I rarely have more than 24 faders involved, each fader or stereo pair controlling one stem. Then I use the DM's automation to automated a mix by feel... I just like doing it with the faders under my hands.

Not to mention the DM's summing is really good. I'll record the mix back in DP using the DM's channel 31-32 as the in and out for the stereo mix, and then apply mastering FX, fade outs, etc., to taste.
 
Thanks Jim ... that's pretty much what I used to do with my DM24 (send out stems) but I still tended to do most of the automation ITB and just used the DM24 for the rough output levels -- I know a bit weird but hey, whatever works! I bet they have done some nice stuff under the hood in DP9 but I'll likely wait for 10 to see what they put on top of it all ;) Of course I say that now .. once I'm all setup in the new place I know I'll be itching to change things up a bit no doubt. I've been very ensconced in the UAD2 plugins ... they just sound soooo good (and eat up so much of my budget!)
 
I like the UAD stuff I have... But the Slate Digital stuff has been blowing my mind lately.
 
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