Your Preference: Click Track or No Click Track?

[Slugworth]

I've been playing guitar for a few decades. A year ago I started playing bass and this led to a want to record. About six months ago I purchased a Tascam dp-008ex and a used Yamaha dd-65 drum pad kit. Also, purchased a used Yamaha belt-driven kick pedal pad and built a wood pedal for the high-hat trigger. Other items include a small 4-channel mixer, SM57 and SM58 mics.

I didn't do much recording for the first two months, but have about ten songs recorded (not all are mastered) presently. Some of those songs are dialed in well as far as timing/instruments synched and some are noticeably not. The recorder has a metronome on it, but I haven't used it much. My drumming is getting better, but I did and still do to a lesser extent struggle with the kick pedal timing which I thought was the reason for most of timing issues I've experienced on some songs.

I recently downloaded a metronome app that is more useful and visual than the one on the recorder that I intend to try out for upcoming recordings. Just today, not sure why it took me so long, I got the idea to lay a bass pedal only track to serve as a timer. Curious if others prefer a click-track and if so, what methods used?

 

[shredd]

GREAT topic. I've also been playing (and recording) for decades...and have had to confront the issues of rhythm. Time is REALLLLY important in music!

I was fortunate for maaaaany years that all of my gear - from $60 drum machines to very expensive MTR's - all had extremely accurate "clocks" - meaning if you set it to xxxBPM, that's EXACTLY what you got - I mean to the microsecond. My DP-32, my ZOOM RT drum machines, and my Roland synths are all deadly accurate, and work beautifully together via MIDI.

In recent years, I've been adding some small-format MTR's (including a TASCAM DP-008EX and a couple of BOSS BR's) for the purpose of remote recording, to be able to export tracks recorded by others and put them into my DP-32 (which is sort of the heart of my home studio).
What I found was that for some of this entry-level/small-format gear, BPM's are an arbitrary measure, perhaps (as the brilliant @Phil Tipping speculated) because of internal circuitry that calculates BPM's. This issue was thoroughly explored in a thread I started about it.

The SHORT version: what I learned is to NOT rely on these units' INTERNAL metronome - if you set it to xxxBPM (to match the project on another unit), the track you record likely WILL NOT SYNC UP.
The solution I arrived at was to turn the small MTR's internal metronome OFF, and use my deadly-accurate ZOOM drum machine/s to record either a click-track, or a basic drumbeat, to play to - so at least the time will match up. when I export the tracks for use in another unit that DOES keep accurate time.
The single glaring drawback of this is in the editing area, since you will have to use real-time, rather than measures. This can be challenging on small-format units that don't have wave displays.

What I mean to say is: it doesn't much matter whether you use a click-track, a drum machine, a metronome...you MUST establish an accurate BPM/time and play to it, or your various tracks will NEVER sync up.

That's my nickel's worth...good luck!

 

[Felonious Punk]

I like more of a drum groove when possible. A metronome doesn't feel musical to me.

FP

 

[Slugworth]

Thanks for the replies. I'm thinking I will use the metronome app to keep time for the kick pedal pad only track. Hopefully, the kick pedal track will help keep me keep all the instruments in time.

I definitely considered a finger style or programmable drum machine before deciding to go with the DD-65. They would have taken less space and possibly less time to build drum tracks. I wanted to learn to drum and think the DD65 is a decent compromise for space compared to larger electronic sets, and volume + ease of recording since no mics are needed compared to an acoustic set.

 

[BazzBass]

in my original band, sometimes we speed up , it's because we are digging it and are humans. Who the f said music has to be one tempo throughout the song?

I HATE click tracks, but understand without a drummer, something has to be the timekeeper.

sometimes the drums are supposed to be a bit offbeat, either behind or in front, listen to EVERY Stones album, Charlie took cues off Keef......

just last week I had a client in,just guitar and bass..... neither were good at keeping time, so I will have to use a click track next time for sure, it has it's uses for sure....

 

[mixerizer]

Overall I track using MIDI time code to sync the recorders, sequencers and automation. During the first pass of recording, I often track to a click, which I print to “tape.” Then I listen back to a MIDI click during overdubs. I combat timing drift from latency during a session by alternately muting the MIDI click and bringing up the printed click, and Vice versa, to hear the flam or beat variation between the two. That way I have two clicks as timing references (the original and the overdub) that tell me instantly whether a track is lagging in subsequent overdubs.

For really organic tracks, the drums (hihat, rim) often serve as the click reference. YMMV!

 

[shredd]

I'll also point out the importance of using some sort of rhythm guide to eliminate time/latency problems.

In my "youth", I recorded overdubs by playing to the previously-recorded tracks coming over my powered monitors (instead of headphone).
The small - but measurable - time delay caused by the time it takes for the sound waves to travel to my ears and be processed by my brain (which then directed my fingers or voice to act) caused latency that made my recordings incredibly sloppy and time-crippled.

YEARS later, I spent a ree-donk-you-luss amount of time dissecting the songs track by track and trying to edit them to all sync up together to make a coherent song. They're barely listenable now...but the originals were - to my current level of recording ability - abysmal failures.

 

[Slugworth]

in my original band, sometimes we speed up , it's because we are digging it and are humans. Who the f said music has to be one tempo throughout the song?

Two of my favorite bands Fishbone and White Denim often speed up from the original tempo when playing live. I feel like I have pretty good natural timing, but some of my recordings tell me otherwise.

Flip side of this is modern (popular) music sounds too perfected and sterile.

 

[shredd]

Flip side of this is modern (popular) music sounds too perfected and sterile.

And not just rhythmically. In 'the old days', when music was actually recorded in a studio, by human musicians, on a long-lost technology called "tape"...the actual human performance of music included the LACK of "perfection".

Watch the brilliant Rick Beato's youtube analysis of YES's song "Roundabout" (widely considered a masterpiece) - he points out in there that at certain points of the song, the inexact timing of the drums actually gives the song a very specific feel that enhances the song, and wouldn't have been there if the drumming was performed to the microsecond.

Speaking for myself: of the thousands of recordings I've listened to - every last one that is in my personal halls of elite are of this are ALL made in this "human musicians" era...warts 'n all!!!

 

[Slugworth]

Thanks. I haven't watched that specific RB/Yes video, but I have watched another one of his on Auto-tune and it touched on how the correction of pitch mistakes can make the vocals sound uninteresting.

 

[BazzBass]

yup, in my day if you couldn't sing in tune, you weren't the singer lol

 

[shredd]

yup, in my day if you couldn't sing in tune, you weren't the singer lol

As if to make my point: the fully natural, actual-recorded vox of the Jon Anderson’s, the Freddie Mercury’s, the Robert Plant’s of the world (with autotune still 10-20 years in the future) are 20X better than any of the autotuned crappola vox if today…

 

[dctdct]

yup, in my day if you couldn't sing in tune, you weren't the singer lol

Would cut the actual video hyped chart music(?) down to 10%. Or less.

 

[Slugworth]

We're probably not too far from artificial intelligence entering the music market and competing with humans. Young listeners have already been groomed by Auto-tune, synth generated, and over produced music that they likely will not know the difference as it's happening.

 

[mixerizer]

It’s not even about quality, it’s about cost savings:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaredc...ive-music-stars-like-biggie-life-after-death/

“It’s going to really be a new way of creating and a new way of generating money with less costs,” the influential beatmaker told Forbes in an exclusive interview. “I’m already here. This is what I’m doing. I’m going to lead the way.”

Timbaland, born Timothy Mosley, said he believes AI voice filters — which allow an artist to assume the voice of another artist — will open up an unprecedented world of creativity in music. Up-and-coming artists with a good cadence or flow, but not a great voice, could use filters to achieve more success. Established artists will be able to share AI replicas of their voices with each other to test collaborations and save time. And a producer could get exclusive rights to use the voice of “a music legend who’s no longer with us,” he said, and fans will eagerly wait for the project to drop.

Mosley said there are a host of legal issues centering on copyright and revenue-sharing to resolve before the future of music can happen, but he’s already got a startup and AI voice filter technology that he wants to sell to usher in the new era.

AI voice filters could have vast implications on how revenue is generated and shared in the $26 billion music industry. They would be a new source of income for the owners of those voices, who could be part of the creation of new material unhampered by death. New pay structures would have to accommodate the fact that a song’s vocal artist could be a machine that mimics a human, and the artistic and financial value of collaborations could hinge on whether an artist lent their real voice or an AI replica.

 

[shredd]

We're probably not too far from artificial intelligence entering the music market and competing with humans. Young listeners have already been groomed by Auto-tune, synth generated, and over produced music that they likely will not know the difference as it's happening.

Yup. No doubt. In fact, it's my opinion that it's already happening - and NO ONE IS NOTICING (or cares.

And like @mixerizer sez: it's about money, not music.
I may be revealing myself as a crotchety old "get off my lawn" geezer...but listening to music knowing it was made by real musicians (albeit in the midst of 48-hour coke-binges and record company pressure) gives it a place in my mind...whereas knowing something was computer-generated/refined pretty much disqualified it as interesting in any way.

I will admit that even I see the potential in it - in a few decades (or beyond) there will be generations of musicians who're able to harness the strengths of such technology and make amazing music, rending guitars and the like to the 2112 cave. Someone who combines the musical mind of Mozart and the technical brilliance of Stephen Hawking, or something like that.

 

[dctdct]

@shredd
Hopefully I will enjoy the last decades of my life still with "real live" concerts where real people will play their instruments and sing with their real voice. With some drops, missed notes and not always pitch perfect vocals.
Yes, I enjoy having a few supporting tools too, to cover some of my lapse.
But IMHO, there are some red lines I don't accept to be crossed!

 

[shredd]

"real live" concerts where real people will play their instruments and sing with their real voice

I was fortunate to enjoy manymany years of RUSH concerts, going back to late 70’s. IMHO the best live-music bang per buck in history. Perhaps more talent per capita than most any band I can think of. I’m spoiled for life.‍

 

[mixerizer]

Over the years, since I first started editing, I found one mark of an excellent drummer and band is when their internal metronome is so consistent that you can move solos, vocals, horns etc. between different takes or performances of the same song from different sessions - including live shows. Sometimes a metronome before the take can remind the drummer of the tempo, but the truly exceptional groups in my own experience had inner timing.

PS you could also guess which folks were partying, and with which party favors, by how often this worked.

 

[shredd]

@mixerizer hit it on the head. There's ability...then there's TALENT - a rock-solid internal metronome being one of them.
And - even as an amateur musician and studio-wrangler: it's not hard to tell whether musicians are more interested in the music, or in the 'lifestyle'.

I offer as a prime example: there's a RUSH video on ytube in which the VIDEO is a concert performance, but the AUDIO is the album version of the song they're playing. All three guys - not just Peart - are in such perfect time that you can't find even a fraction of lag/latency/off-timing between the video and the audio. It's stunning.