Defective DP24SD after one day?

[Curtis Fisher]

Recently had a DP24 fail on me by not staying powered on, so got a new DP24-SD in the mail yesterday and after one day of use I am already getting errors, specifically WRITE ERROR on ANY SD card I use. I've tried 2 different approved SanDisk cards as well as several other brands that aren't on the list. Firmware is CURRENT. This happens after a Quick and a Full format and after I transfer my audio files back to the AUDIO folder. I have 5 nearly complete tracks with guitar, bass and drums done and this keeps happening. Frustrating.

When I arm a track to record, sometimes it will record so I hit stop. Then when I try to record a second time on that track is says WRITE ERROR. I've turned the unit off several times and even let it sit overnight to let the "cache" clear but this still happens.

Is this company and it's products really this incredibly crappy? Their customer service blows, as they haven't even emailed me back about my FIRST failing DP24, which was over a week ago.

Any help would be appreciated, thank you.

 

[Phil Tipping]

Errors like this are usually the card or old firmware. I sympathise with possibly losing a song, but the machine may not be as bad as it sounds. If an error was a one-off glitch or your card is incompatible or faulty, this may have corrupted files in the song. If you then re-format that card and transfer the corrupted song back to it, you're propagating the error. Same goes with a new card - it may appear faulty when it isn't.
Do you get any problems if you format a card, then start afresh with a new song? If so, then maybe you've been really unlucky and it's a genuine fault, in which case you should be entitled to a refund.

 

[Dunny]

Hi Curtis did you come up with a solution to your concern with the Tascam DP24 ?

 

[mariusvideo]

Try to format the card and to update the firmware

 

[Curtis Fisher]

I found a solution and I want to bring my knowledge to this situation without sounding like an a**, but I feel like any Joe can offer their typical advice and solutions of "format your card" or "reboot your unit" until it actually happens to them. I appreciate the help I've received, but...

I found out that my problem was caused by an abnormal amount of WAV files on my SD card. Like I said, I had been recording drums, bass, 2 guitars and vocals for several weekends on the same SD card and found out that I had around 1000 separate WAV files.

I had the drums complete (8 tracks) so I bounced those down to the Audiodepot folder as 8 complete WAV files instead of the 300+ that I had. That pretty much fixed the problem.

In conclusion, it wasn't the brand of SD card or ANYTHING of that matter, it was the pure concept of this unit saving EVERY second of recording even if you use ANY functions on the Edit mode.

I appreciate all who contribute to this forum, but please try to think bigger than to recommend a single line comment of formatting a card, trying a different card or updating firmware (when they were already mentioned in the original post) and things like that.

Cheers all.

 

[Phil Tipping]

Thanks for the update Curtis, always good to get a follow-up on problem solutions.

Just to clarify, are you saying the fault was because the card was nearly full or was it because there were lots of files?
Were the 300+ wave files in the AudioDepot folder (these are only created by you whenever you export a track), or are you talking about the ZZ files in the song folder (which are created by the machine whenever you edit or record regardless of the transport position)?

I'm trying to get evidence for my theory that these machines may suffer from fragmentation, similar to computer hard discs. The fact that the machine creates lots of files without your knowledge gives some credence to this, but I've had no confirmation so it remains just a theory. If it is true, then the solution is to defragment (if there is a utility for sd-cards) or to reformat.

 

[Curtis Fisher]

I had tried a 16gb card in there with 6 hours left to record, so the card was not nearly full at all whatsoever. I'm not sure where I got the 300 number, but the wav files were not in the Audiodepot folder, they were in the Music folder (or whatever the default folder is for recording). I am not talking about the ZZ files either. There was nothing in the Audiodepot folder until I exported them and Imported them into each of their tracks, thus creating ONE track each.

This hardware/software system is SEVERELY flawed.

I wouldn't imagine defragmentation is a solution because TASCAM does not even mention this. Like I said, I had 4 weekends (5 hours each) worth of recordings and this happened. Totally unacceptable if you ask me.

EDIT: Thank you Phil for the relevant help thus far. You're obviously 6+ hours from me so it is much appreciated.

 

[Phil Tipping]

Curtis, I'm still not sure what exactly fixed the problem - sorry
As far as I know, the only wave files stored in the song folder are the ZZ internal workfiles, plus the latest mix/master file and its backup (if you've mixed down).

When you Export, the ZZ files remain where they are. They are just collated and organised by the machine, and a single wave file (per track) is created in the AudioDepot folder.

So if you export and then re-import, was this to the same song or did you create a new song first?
If it was the same song, did you manually delete the old ZZ files first using a computer - be interesting to know if the machine did this automatically.

Either way, I would guess the old ZZ files would not be used even if they remained, as the master index (the .sys file) would now refer to the new ZZ files, which as you say have been rebuilt by the import process, one per track. So the machine is no longer having to jump about through all the ZZ files whenever it plays back a track. This is similar to fragmentation but at a higher level.

If this export/import trick solves the problem without using a computer, it could be a very useful tip.

 

[Phil Tipping]

Just done some experiments... how's this for a theory?

Problem:
Write-errors may appear if you've done lots of re-takes and/or edits.

Reason:
Each re-take or edit creates a new 'ZZ' wave file in the song folder for each fragment of audio.
The machine has to traverse all these files in order to playback a track seamlessly.
The machine always plays back other tracks while recording, so has to traverse all these files even if you are only recording a single track.
If there are too many files, the machine chokes and displays a write error.

How to avoid/fix:
Force the ZZ files to be rebuilt so they start off as a single fragment per track.
Do this by exporting & importing each track...

Method 1: (using a new song; recommended)

• Menu, Song: Load the song
• Menu, AudioDepot: Export each track
• Menu, Song: Create a new song (this retains all other song settings)
• Menu, AudioDepot: Import each track
• Menu, Song: Erase previous song (if reqd. to save space on card)

Method 2: (using the same song; error prone)

• Menu, Song: Load the song
• Menu, AudioDepot: Export each track
• Home: Track Edit, Clean Out each track (so track can appear on Import list)
• Menu, AudioDepot: Import each track
• Menu, Song: Delete Unused (if reqd. to save space on card)

Any thoughts? Any proof?

 

[Mark Richards]

Phil, your theory and your Method 1 solution make sense to me. The need to concatenate numerous edits looks like a plausible explanation for the DP brain freeze. Creating a new song folder also creates new sys files in the song folder, and so importing the exported tracks to a new song folder gives everything a fresh start.

Even so, and as you may recall, the export/import process has its own challenges because the Audio Depot Import screen truncates the file names making it difficult to know what's what.
(I had posted a cure for that here:
http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/dp-24-32-import-file-naming-caveats.5056/#post-24647)

My empirical (unscientific) opinion is the "time remaining" display is, at best, a SWAG (based on what's already been recorded) because the DP's computer can't anticipate what's coming down the pike. I've run out 16gb cards in the past when I thought I had enough "time" and now use only 32gb cards to be reasonably sure I will always have enough physical wiggle room.

So I've learned the hard way to work more cautiously. I record/mix/master one song at time; do a "Delete Unused", then move the cleaned up song file to my computer. When the entire project is done, I move all the project's completed song folders to a permanent SD card of the appropriate size and write protect it. (BTW, the only files I've ever seen in a Song Folder in my 5 years using a DP-24 are the sys files, the zz files, and the master wav file and backup.)

Edit:
As each project song is completed I'm adding to my wrap up procedure Phil's idea to export the tracks and then import to a new song folder, so that the permanent project SD card will be as clean as possible.

 

[David Porter]

Isn't a semi-regular "house cleaning" as you work through a project - via the "Delete Unused" utility function - a simple way to avoid this issue?

 

[Phil Tipping]

As far as I can tell, Delete Unused only deletes the unused (of course ) ZZ files. It does not re-compact the ZZ files which are still needed to re-constitute the track. So if you have one track and 300 ZZ files, and 200 are still fragments of the track, Delete Unused will get rid of 100, but the machine still has to traverse the other 200 whenever it plays that track.
I believe it's this which is causing the problem. It's like fragmentation (which normally applies to a single file), but at the 'track' level. The only way of compacting the ZZ files into a single file is export/import.

Good point Mark re. file names in the AudioDepot folder. If this really is a solution to the problem, a new function from Tascam to compact each track would be very useful! Failing that, a utility on a computer could be used to process the edltable.sys file and rebuild the ZZ files... any programmers out there up for the challenge?

 

[Dunny]

So from this thread i presume the "Delete unused" is not a true clear out of all "unused" data , and that the zz files are not deleted until they have been through the import and export procedure, advised by Phil , a lot of this thread has gone over my head at the moment , but i will understand the problem with time , but to me on a positive note the members of this small community have identified and engineered a solution to the problem which is pretty darn good lads

 

[Phil Tipping]

Paul, yes the Delete Unused command only deletes zz files which are not required for that song, but it's worth doing to save space on the card.

The command doesn't do anything with the zz files which are still required, and it's these which is what we're (I'm) speculating causes a glitch or write error if there are too many.

The Export command converts all these zz files into a single wave file in the AudioDepot folder ready for copying to a computer - that's its job... but it's a different file - it leaves the original zz files alone.

The point is though, now you can Import that file, either by deleting the original track then importing to the same track (method 2), or more simply by creating a new song and then importing it (method 1).

Either way, the machine will create a single zz file for each track... again, that's its job. It's only one zz file at this point as you've not yet had chance to edit it or append any recordings to it.

So if you imported into the same song (method 2), all those zz files will be superseded by the new one created by the Import process, so now they are unused. This means the song should be glitch free at this point as it no longer has to traverse them. You can now use Delete Unused to clear them if you like, but this is only to save space - it's not reqd. to fix the error.

If you imported to a new song (method 1), there are no spurious zz files to delete so nothing more needs doing, apart from maybe deleting the original song if you want to save space.

I wonder if the earlier dp models all have similar problems - I know they use different partitions on the card, so Export was also a way of converting the 'hidden' files to FAT for use with a computer, but would be interesting to know if they used the same track 'fragment' concept... in which case this would explain the glitches on those machines too. Perhaps Curtis was right after all... there is an 'Achilles heel' in the file system design!

 

[Dunny]

Ok Phil got it , but i cant help wondering how a "user" without the use of a forum, would go about solving the concern , and there probably is somewhere out there ! if there is a "Achilles heel' to the system then you lads have found and fixed or at least know how to in the future .

You cant ask for anymore than that Brilliant

 

[Stew71]

I've been using my DP24 (not the 24SD) to record live band rehearsals - 8 inputs at once, generally it's worked just as it should.

What I've tended to do up to now is just leave it all set up, and hit record/stop at various points; this gives a set of long audio files (max has been nearly three hours of multitracks) which I then export as WAVs to a DAW to chop them up (into specific songs etc). Never had any errors at all in the time (a couple of years?) that I've had it.

Yesterday I had a couple of write errors - the unit just stopped, mid-recording. I had to double-press the stop button to take it out of a 'pause'. There had been no edits (unless stop/start itself counts in file management terms as an edit, maybe).

After two instances of this, I saved the file, reloaded my template, started a new song and it was fine.

The 32 GB SD card has around 20GB free space or thereabouts.

I'm guessing these errors are a symptom of the machine/card being overstretched. Probably my best bet is to fully format the card - any other thoughts?

Thanks

Stew

 

[Phil Tipping]

Hi Stew, well this is exactly the point we've been discussing. When you say you just "hit record/stop at various points", the machine still creates a new file for each armed track even if you are 'continuing' the recording on the same tracks. You could confirm this by using your computer to browse the song folder under the MUSIC folder - in theory you should see lots of ZZ files... many more than the no. of tracks you are using.

 

[Stew71]

Thanks Phil. Yep, as suspected - there are 56 'ZZ' files in there (from ZZ0000_1 to ZZ0006_8), showing after the initial 'record' hit, I (or the unit) stopped, and I then restarted, 6 times.

I think I'll full-format the card, and in future take the time to restart with a new template after fewer stops.

By the way - your videos are great - thankyou!

 

[Michael Zapin]

OMG!! Phil Tipping - I cannot thank you enough for this:
The Export command converts all these zz files into a single wave file in the AudioDepot folder ready for copying to a computer - that's its job... but it's a different file - it leaves the original zz files alone.

The point is though, now you can Import that file, either by deleting the original track then importing to the same track (method 2), or more simply by creating a new song and then importing it (method 1).

Either way, the machine will create a single zz file for each track... again, that's its job. It's only one zz file at this point as you've not yet had chance to edit it or append any recordings to it.

I thought I fried my SD Card, but then panic set in when I was still getting a write error with an alternate card. Luckily I had saved my files to a backup on my computer, but had no idea how to get the damn DP24 to write to the card again. I was about 25 hours into a song with maybe 80 percent of it finished. First when I imported it back into the unit, it sounded very strange -- I couldn't figure it out, but someone else on this thread provided another invaluable tip (and I want to thank him as well - can't find his post now..) - that was to rename the tracks on the computer before importing them back in, placing the track number a the front of the name. The first time I imported the tracks back into the unit, it had the tracks scambled and didn't put the right waves into the right tracks - I wasn't able to read the wav names until I renamed them. It all works perfectly now. You guys were a life saver. Thank you.

 

[Michael Zapin]

Ah - I see it was Mark Richards I also want to thank for his little tidbit:

Even so, and as you may recall, the export/import process has its own challenges because the Audio Depot Import screen truncates the file names making it difficult to know what's what.
(I had posted a cure for that here:
http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/dp-24-32-import-file-naming-caveats.5056/#post-24647)