DM-4800 with firewire best practice

[wizzywizz]

Dear All!

As of yesterday I am the proud owner of a DM-4800 with firewire card. I have a question regarding the workflow/ audio routing with regards to this mixer in combination with Cubase. Please excuse my dummy terminology!

What is "best practice" in using this mixer in combination with Cubase? The amount of options this mixer has a phenomenal. I would like to learn how people with experience with this mixer work with this mixer icm with firewire.

Currently I have Cubase in between the audio route. Basically all my 24 preamp channels are output to Cubase through firewire (in1 -> cubase track 1 -> out1, etc.) and all tracks are send back to the same channel. This gives me the ability to record all channels clean/ "as is" and modify compression/ eq/ gate, etc. realtime without recording these modifications. As a bonus I can use the effects, etc. from Cubase as well. This gives me some latency, but it is workable. Configuration:

ROUTING - INPUT (SLOT1 = Firewire card)
SLOT1-1 ------- INP ----- CH1
M/L 1 ------------ RTN---- CH1
etc.

ROUTING - OUTPUT SLOTS
SLOT1 Trk1-8
1 ----- M/L 1
2 ----- M/L 2
3 ----- M/L 3
etc.

Any tips/ trics would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you in advance!

WizzyWizz

 

[Jarno]

I think you answered your question yourself: because of the countless options there's no such thing as "best practise".

My default setup is like this:
1. Use one layer (CH1-24) to monitor already recorded tracks from Cubase
2. Use one layer (CH25-48) for "zero-latency" monitoring of DM's M/L inputs (things being recorded)
3. Use last layer for F/X returns and my monitoring external preamps.
4. Send M/L inputs (and my external preamps) directly to Cubase using INPUT BYPASS routing.

If you want to know something more about this kind of setup, please post your more detailed questions here. I can also sned you a Tascam Mixer Companion file with my setup, if needed.

 

[juanjitosound]

Hi, I've already monitoring ProTools10, but I can not mix in DM4800, and I can not configure external effects, I am new to digital mixers, please help if you could teach me to route my DM4800.Jarno!!!, I hope you can help me with some preset
thanks friends.....

 

[Jarno]

Could you please clarify "I can not mix"? Is it:
1. You can't get different tracks from PT to different channels on DM
2. You can't record your mixdown made with DM back to PT
3. Something else
All details about your problem could help on reolving it.

 

[wizzywizz]

Hello Jarno!

Thank you for your insights! Could you tell me why you would need this zero-latency monitoring of the M/L's ? Is it because of overdubbing tracks without latency along side pre-recorded tracks? Doesn't that leave you with output latency of the firewire card as well? Currently I have both the firewire slot input track as the pre-amp as return on my INPUT set-up and on the

Again, thanks so much for all your help!

Kind regards,

Giljam

 

[juanjitosound]

Jarno !!!!! ok, I appreciate your time.

1. - I could route the outputs independent pro tools, and process in the DM, but I can not return my process to Pro Tools. I hear my process but when exporting my mix (bounce to Mix) ...... hmm this if signal

2.-I did, recording with the DM to Pro Tools, with input M / L 1, M / L 2 etc.
if that's what you mean.

3.-LEX I have external effects, Yamaha ..... even I can not use them
or do not know how ... with the DM.

sorry I do not speak English I hope you understand.

 

[Jarno]

but when exporting my mix (bounce to Mix)

OK! This is your problem! You cannot "Export" mix inside your DAW (PT) when using external mixing console. You have to record your mix back to the DAW (or other recording equipment).

1. In your DM route STEREO L/R to a pair of Firewire outputs (I use outputs 31/32 for this).
2. Create a stereo track inside your DAW and assign DM's FW outputs (31/32 in my example) as it's input.
3. Record-enable the track
4. Hit PLAY and REC

external effects

In case your F/X box is a send F/X (reverb, delay):
1. Connect DM's ASN SND to your F/X's input
2. Connect your F/X's output to DM's ASN RTN
3. Route one of DM's AUXes to this ASN send
4. Route this ASN RTN to one of DM's channels

In case your F/X is a compressor or other insert-type F/X:
1. Connect DM's ASN SND to your F/X's input
2. Connect your F/X's output to DM's ASN RTN
3. Define this ASN SND/RTN pair as an insert in DM's INSERT ROUTING and assign it to the desired channel

sorry I do not speak English I hope you understand.

Your English is good enough. English isn't my first language either, so excuse any stupid spelling/grammar errors I make.

Could you tell me why you would need this zero-latency monitoring of the M/L's ? Is it because of overdubbing tracks without latency along side pre-recorded tracks?

Exactly! It's always nice to have lowest monitoring latency you can get. In my opinion this is one of the most important reasons to use dedicated mixing console.

Doesn't that leave you with output latency of the firewire card as well?

I don't understand your question. Of course there's latency on the tracks I already recorded, but Cubase (as any modern DAW) compensates this latency automatically, which keeps everything in perfect sync.

 

[wizzywizz]

Aha. Okay. That's clear, thanks !

If I may be so bold as to ask another question?

What do you do to group for instance a drummic set of tracks? Let's say I've recorded a drumset with 11 mics. I would have these 11 mics under 11 faders. I could assign them all to a buss and group them this way, but then I only have compression, panning and volume control over this buss. No EQ for example. Do you have a tip with regards to this?

Thanks for your insights!

Kind regards,

Giljam

 

[Jarno]

What do you do to group for instance a drummic set of tracks? Let's say I've recorded a drumset with 11 mics. I would have these 11 mics under 11 faders. I could assign them all to a buss and group them this way, but then I only have compression, panning and volume control over this buss. No EQ for example. Do you have a tip with regards to this?

Indeed I have. There's LOOPBACK ROUTING feature in your DM in which you can feed any module's (channel, buss, aux, ...) output to the input of a channel. And in the channel you have an EQ.

Just loopback output of your drum buss into a pair of channels.

You can use loopback for other these kinds of problems also: adding EQ to AUX send, daisy-chaining 2 (or more) channels for more than 4 bands of EQ/more than one dynamic processor, etc...

 

[wizzywizz]

That's briljant!!!!! Thanks for the tip!!!

 

[juanjitosound]

Jarno ,...I'm traveling, thank you very much for your time, I'll put in practice your recommendations in my DM, keep up in this best forum

 

[juanjitosound]

Friends, I have a question, I did what our friend Jarno, so good, I have pro tools, I have the FW card, my understanding is that I can only mix 24 channels? if not, please tell me how .... thank you very much for the time

 

[wizzywizz]

Hi there!

No it is a true 64 channel mixer. You have 24 pre-amp inputs, 12 assignable returns (which are also usable as inputs), 2 x digital inputs, ADAT for 8 in- & outputs and 4 optional cards for extra inputs (like the if an/dm, if ad/dm, etc.). The firewire card (if fw/dm mkii) is also interperted as inputs by the mixer (32 channels in and out).

Incredible mixer with lots and lots of routing options! I just bought mine 2 weeks ago. Jarno helped me to figure out the audio routing part and the workflow. Thanks again Jarno!!

The sky is the limit with this thing!

Tip: invest in a good firewire card (for instance one with a texas instruments chipset) and don't use a crappy NEC. A TI chipset firewire card will cost about 70$. Firewire cards with a NEC chipset have difficulty with the traffic of 32 channels. TI chipset firewire cards can easily do 32 channels at 48kHz (or higher) at 24bits.

Kind regards from a truely enthousiastic user

WizzyWizz

 

[Antony]

My default setup is like this:
1. Use one layer (CH1-24) to monitor already recorded tracks from Cubase
2. Use one layer (CH25-48) for "zero-latency" monitoring of DM's M/L inputs (things being recorded)
3. Use last layer for F/X returns and my monitoring external preamps.
4. Send M/L inputs (and my external preamps) directly to Cubase using INPUT BYPASS routing.

If you want to know something more about this kind of setup, please post your more detailed questions here. I can also sned you a Tascam Mixer Companion file with my setup, if needed.[/quote]

I know this is an old post but this seems to be what I'm trying to achieve. Would you still have the tmc file.

Antony

 

[Jarno]

Would you still have the tmc file.

Sure:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~jvarjoti/dm/Default.tpi

 

[Antony]

Thats great cheers, but when I click the link its a page of 0's and 1's etc. I'm on a mac how do I get tmc to read this. Sorry for my ignorance but im new to the dm.

Cheers

Antony.

 

[Antony]

Hi Jarno.

Thanks for posting the tpi file. After changing to logic and sample rate the routing seems cool. My main issues now are that on the first layer 1-24 I can monitor whats coming of logic but the output 1 and 2 from logic comes up on dm channels 1 and 2 which is really bugging me as I just want logics stereo out to come up on the dm's stereo fader, and the meters aren't working so I can't meter what logic is doing.

My main aim with the dm is to track onto logic and then use it as a control surface as I still want to mix itb. Can I achieve this while using the meter bridge in remote. I also cant get the timecode on the meter bridge working.

Many thanks

Antony.

 

[wizzywizz]

Hi y'all!

So ... I've been working with the DM-4800 for a few months now and I am starting to get the hang of it. The workflow of this mixer in comparison to other mixers I've worked with is great! The pre-amps are great and transparent!
I've come to see the mixer as my recording/ live mixing compagnon. In my opinion it is not always practical for a final mix. When recording it is very nice to be able to set all your gates, compression EQ's, etc. to be able to get a proximity of what you want to go for. Complex projects use a lot of channels. 32 channels seems like a lot, but it's not...... Some stereo synth lines, multiple mic's for some instruments (like the bass with DI and mic, kick with kick mic and sub kick mic, snare top&bottom) and you're out of channels basically. Often I create a hybrid project. Some things like gates and compression I use from the mixer but a lot of things are much easier in Cubase (like automation, etc.).
I was wondering, what is your take on this ? What do you normally do when you have for instance your drum tracks recorded and cleaned up? Group (loopback) them together on the mixer or group them together in your DAW and re-gate, re-compress, etc. everything send it to a group channel in cubase (or any other DAW) to the mixer for the final mix? In Cubase for instance one has a nearly infinite number of channels available and is therefore is ideal for instruments like drums which are recorded with 11+ microphones.

Could you give us some insights regarding the way you work?

Thanks in advance!!

Kind regards,

WizzyWizz

 

[captdan]

Since I don't track live drums, my workflow isn't the same as yours. But I regularly use my DAW's track count to submix related instruments and route them to the DM.

In a 'virtual' way, my drum parts are bussed/submixed to begin with; I use NI's Studio Drummer which has its own mixer and sonic controls. If I want the kit to sound as though it were tracked in a single room, I'll submix the kit in NI, then route it to a DM stereo pair. That way I still have control of individual parts of the kit, which also can be individually treated by a second instantiation of the instrument into seperate DM mono channels. I often do this with snare and kick drums.

I never feel restricted by 32 DM channels; I can have twice that in Ptools (though I've never needed to). For example, several stereo keys can be stacked together and submixed in the DAW, and assigned to one or two DM stereo pairs for final treatment.

This is why I like mixing out of the box: I can rely on the DAW to provide character with dynamics and eq plugins, and the DM as a sculpting/surgical tool for the mix.
To me, it's just easier and more accurate to aux 'verbs and delays on the mixer, and use the powerful Tascam EQs to apply high pass, shelving and other filtration to channels so the mix is balanced and 'breathable.' Also, the DM's flexible channel panning helps to keep individal elements from stepping on each other in the stereo image.

In any event, no matter what DAW you run, using it with the DM is an incredibly liberating and creative way to approach production. (I hope this doesn't sound too much like an advert. )

CaptDan

 

[Muziekschuur]

If you would look at the return channels as busses. You have like 32 busses. Wich equals to 16 stereo busses.

So I record with 16 (DM3200) or 24 (DM4800) into DAW.

(You can expand that number with effects sends to DAW as line inputs. Other options are 8 channels by ADAT (Presonus 8 chnl mic pre (a high end solution would be the ATI (=api (but the Paragon preamps) 8x2). Or 1 analog card in the DM3200 or 3 analog cards in the DM4800).

Now with overdubs you can expand the number up to a 100 tracks as this would be the limit of tracks a single harddrive can record/playback max. If you have 16 to 32GB ram this number could be higher. But if you do rock/blues soul with like mx 10 musicians it is probably better to mix down to stems at around 45 tracks. Making early decisions is usually creatively better than to expand the mix endlessly and to find yourself with an unstable system and have no way to go back a step.

So now you have a 100 channels. And you buss them back to 16 stereo busses and mix those back on your console if desired. Or you can use the remote layer to keep everything in the box. If you keep your settings at 8 stereo busses you can use the other 8 for 2 stereo sends for internal efx send to DAW and 2 stereo external efx for use in the DAW and come back including DAW effects on two stereo pair.

Two stereo pair can allso be used as return of headphone mixes so you can mute others and listen to what artists are hearing...

I hope this elaborate story gives some additional insight of the use of a digital mixer.