DR-100MK3 recorder with US-2x2HR interface

[Bambi]

Hello, I have a couple of questions about preamp levels. I'm using my Tascam DR-100MK3 in three different ways; one is recording with the internal mics, the second is connecting an external condenser mic, and the third one is connecting the external mic to a Tascam US-2x2HR interface, and then it to the recorder. I'd like to know:

1) What level do the recorder's internal preamps provide? Is it a +4 dBu line level or is it higher or lower? And does the preamp level change between using an external mic or using the internal ones?

2) When I use the US-2x2HR interface I do it in a standalone mode, without connecting it to the computer, just as an external preamp. The thing is that I don't get a better audio level (volume) that when using the recorder by itself or with the condenser mic connected directly to it. I've checked all the chain steps and think they are correct: average condenser mic, phantom power on, enough gain and output levels, etc. Does it mean that I can't get a better audio level with the interface than with the other options or am I doing something wrong?

I'd appreciate any help you could lend me. Thank you

 

[Arjan P]

Hi Bambi, and welcome to the forums.
Usually, on these forums people learn from other people having had the same issues - and finding the solution! So it's a pity you removed all text - others might have learned.

And even if it was plain stupidity rather than a real issue, we've all been there too!

 

[Bambi]

Hello Arjan, I'm sorry I removed the text. I just wanted to avoid confusion as I had found a solution. Next time I won't erase the text

 

[Bambi]

Hello again, I've decided to continue the thread as I only solved part of my doubts. I'm sorry for the confusion. I won't erase the text this time. What I'd like to ask is if somebody knows the preamp levels of the DR-100MK3 recorder. I'd like to know the nominal and the maximum level. Does it reach the +4 dBu line level, higher or lower? Thank you in advance and sorry for the inconvenience

 

[-mjk-]

DR-100MKIII | SPECIFICATIONS | TASCAM - United States

 

[Bambi]

Hello MJK, thank you for your link. I had already checked the audio specifications but I don't know which of them corresponds to the preamp level when recording with the internal mics. Could you please orient me?

The other part of my problem was related to the level/volume I can get when connecting a Tascam US-2x2HR interface to the recorder. I thought I had solved my doubt but actually I'm still confused. I want to operate the interface in standalone mode, without connecting it to the computer, just as an external preamp. My doubt is if recording with an external mic and the interface connected to the recorder I would get a better (higher) level compared to recording with the internal mics, or compared to recording with the external mic and without the interface.

I'm very sorry for the mess. I hope you can orient me nevertheless

 

[-mjk-]

OK Bambi. I took a look at your first post and I was able to revert it back to the original so we know what you're talking about.

In post #3 you said:

What I'd like to ask is if somebody knows the preamp levels of the DR-100MK3 recorder. I'd like to know the nominal and the maximum level.

Your original post and post #6 however, are questions about the preamp level when recording with the internal mics.

The answer is: no one knows. The internal mics are not listed because it doesn't matter. Clearly, the internal mics and preamps are designed to work together. That said, the specs show that on the MIC IN XLR connector, it can handle:

1. Minimum Input Level -70.5dBu (PAD Off)
2. Maximum Input Level -14dBu (PAD On)

That's the range of the preamp, so the internal mics apparently fall somewhere in that range.

I don't know why you are asking this question. In your OP you mentioned that you aren't getting enough audio level. What kind of level are you getting? Let's start with that first. This is their top-of-the-line recorder and it should handle pretty much whatever you can throw at it. Also, it has a Dual Level recording function that records a second safety file at -12 dB.

There is an input level knob on the right side of the unit. Normally, one would watch the meters and adjust this knob for whatever level they need. Are you unable to adjust the level?

 

[Bambi]

Hello MJK, thank you for recovering my original message. After reading your answer I understand better the preamp response when recording with the internal mics. Regarding the levels when using the interface as a preamp, let's start from the beginning. Using the recorder with an external mic and without the interface, I can get the level as close I want to zero dB, but the resulting file sounds a little bit low to me. So I thought of buying an external preamp (the US-2x2HR interface) to see if I could get a higher volume recording, as the interface delivers a nominal +4 dBu from the output. With the interface I can get as close I want to zero dB, like in the first case, and the resulting file has a similar volume. I've recorded the same sound source and at similar levels in both cases (around -12 dB). So I may be making a conceptual mistake. I thought that if the recorder received a higher input level (+4 dBu from the interface vs a lower input from the external mic) I would get a higher sounding file. But it seems that what determines the final volume is the recording level I get on the screen (-12 dB) rather than the input level I supply to the recorder, right? I'm sorry if it's a foolish question

 

[Bambi]

I mean -12 dB on average, with peaks around -6 dB

 

[-mjk-]

I'm sorry if it's a foolish question

No! It's not a foolish question at all!

Let me start by saying that, it sounds like you have experience in the analog recording realm. I personally had to wrap my head around the concept that with digital recording actual recording level does not matter as long as the audio is clean. If you have very clean, undistorted audio at -30 LUFS, you can always increase the gain and the quality of the signal will not change at all. I found that amazing, actually, because I came from the world of +4 and "needles banging" in the VU meters. The truth is, in the digital realm we do not have to fight that signal-to-noise ratio monster that we did with analog tape and shot noise.

In your last message you said:

I can get the level as close I want to zero dB, but the resulting file sounds a little bit low to me

0dB on a digital recorder is the absolute limit (avoiding the argument of scale, we can say that 0dB RMS is about 0 LUFS). Yes, you can go over 0dB but anything over 0dB is 100% distortion. Generally, engineers will mix at -12 dBFS to ensure there is adequate headroom in the digital domain. Think about this for a moment: Your recorder has a Dual Level function that makes a safety copy that is recorded -12 dB lower than the main track. Why is that? Because in the real world, bad things can happen, and that means serious overload. If you are recording close to 0dB there is no margin for dynamics. Any clean digital audio file can be adjusted to whatever final level is required (a fundamental principal of Mastering). So, if something happened to your main recording file that overloaded, all you have to do is take that -12 dB file and normalize it and you are good to go. The sonic quality will be identical because it is digital.

When you are referring to these relative volumes, you may be talking about how loud they play back on the recorder's speaker. But, be assured that if you have a clean, undistorted signal, you can easily work with that audio file in post and make it however loud you need it.

I mean -12 dB on average, with peaks around -6 dB

That is a very good place to be. When I mix a record, I try to keep my master bus in that range.

What you get is what you see on the input meters. You have an input level control. You could be overloading the input but turning it down with the level control. That might introduce distortion if the input level is high, even though you're turning it down.

 

[Arjan P]

For the sake of discussion, it would be nice to know what source material you are recording, @Bambi. Because with some sources (any type of percussion comes to mind), an incidental peak may force you to turn down the recording level to prevent going over 0 dB - which is fine because you can pump up the volume in post, like @-mjk- says. To the ear, however, it will sound like a low volume that's recorded..

 

[Bambi]

Hello MJK and Arjan, thank you very much for your replies. MJK, thank you very much for your explanation. It really clarifies me many things. I'm very inexperienced in recording, and the different proceedings in the analog vs the digital world represent and extra challenge for me. Now I understand better the -12 dB dual recording option and other concepts that were a little bit confusing to me. It's great to not have to worry about the levels and only getting a clear recording! Hahaha. I thought that increasing the volume in postproduction could affect the quality of the recording, something like amplifying a photo image beyond it's resolution. But it's great to find that it doesn't.

Arjan, thank you very much for your advice. I'm recording a small percussion set, indeed, but very muted. It's volume is like that of a person's voice talking loud or so. But it can have sudden peaks if I hit too hard accidentally. Besides, I'd like to leave some headroom for further mixing with other instruments. I've read that a reasonable recording level is between -18 and -12 dBFs, but I think it refers to the peaks, right?

 

[-mjk-]

I've read that a reasonable recording level is between -18 and -12 dBFs, but I think it refers to the peaks, right?

@Bambi that would refer to the average level. That's to give the peaks room to happen without clipping.

 

[Bambi]

Ok, MJK. Thank you for the correction. I only have 1 more question. For me is important to get the best signal to noise ratio, as I have to record a quiet sound source, with only 1 mic, and positioned around 2 feet away from the source. I have an average mic (AKG P420), with good signal to noise ratio (15 dBA of self-noise and 79 dBA SNR). I get better results using the mic combined with the recorder than using the internal mics alone. I also want to leave enough headroom for the mix. So my question is, would an average -18 dBFs level be the best reference to get both things (good SNR and enough headroom) or should I go a little bit higher? And, if I record at -18 dBFs and get peaks around, let's say, -9 dBFs or so, would that be a problem in the mix?

 

[Arjan P]

So my question is, would an average -18 dBFs level be the best reference to get both things (good SNR and enough headroom) or should I go a little bit higher? And, if I record at -18 dBFs and get peaks around, let's say, -9 dBFs or so, would that be a problem in the mix?

I'd say you could get higher, so if you on average see -12 dBFS indicated with incidental peaks at -6 dBFS, you should be fine. Certainly with a percussive instrument you'll have plenty of headroom that way, since such a recording with an average level of -12 will have quite low loudness, just because it is percussive. A constant tone at such a level would give quite a different perception.

 

[-mjk-]

What @Arjan P said. Remember, You still have that dual recording capability with the safety file that's -12 DB below that.

 

[JSchmo_Bass]

Great discussion.

I’d have a question... aren’t the preamps in these digital linear PCM’s (in the DR but also in the rest of the lineup) still analog? And the level control is effecting that analog circuit? So therefore could input level setting still matter to a degree in terms of outcome?

So for example in a case where my main recording did NOT clip, stayed right around -12db average, as compared to my backup at -12db below that and then later both normalized ...will they really sound identical? Or will there not still some added noise from the mic, wire and preamp that is going to be more apparent in the back up track once boosted to be same as the main track?

my hunch is yes, but that it’s not so bad amount of using 24 bit depth and otherwise good equipment?

I heard that with 32 bit float we get into a world where level controls will disappear... clipping at the ADC level is not possible.

 

[-mjk-]

Or will there not still some added noise from the mic, wire and preamp that is going to be more apparent in the back up track once boosted to be same as the main track?
/QUOTE]

Even that is attenuated to the same degree. The tracks are otherwise identical.

 

[Bambi]

Hello Arjan, MJK and JSchmo_Bass. Thank you Arjan an MJK for the advice. It sounds very reasonable. I'll stay into those levels for my next recordings. Regarding the 12 dB lower safety file the problem I see is that it doesn't work while the dual ADC function is active (the function that improves the overall signal to noise ratio in 7 dB), which I use. So I'll have to choose one or another. However, I think I can get a good result with both options.

JSchmo_Bass, that's a good question, too. It may be that, as normalizing the safety file not only increases the noise level but also the main signal, you end up getting the same signal to noise ratio, I don't know. So the MJK answer is very helpful on that sense