Please Explain This From The Mod 12 Manual

Discussion in 'Model 24/16/12' started by zozoe, Aug 1, 2020.

  1. zozoe

    zozoe New Member

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    Maximum Recordable ChannelNumber: 12ch (10ch + 2 stereo mix)

    So there's 10 actual tracks to record onto, & you can fly in an outside stereo source, or you mix down to those 2 tracks? It's not clear...
    Thnx
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  2. zozoe

    zozoe New Member

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    MJK, help a guy out here,,,,
  3. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

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    1. Yes
    2. Yes
    3. Yes
    It's a 10 track multitrack recorder with a 2 track mixdown recorder (10+2=12). You can bring in stereo (or mono) sources.

    Btw, I'm no expert on that device. I only know what I've read and seen on the videos.
  4. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

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    This seems to be a source of confusion with these Model series machines. The last two tracks are always a 2 track recorder that can (apparently) only be used to record a mix of audio from the multitrack tracks and outboard sources going to the main stereo bus.

    • Model 24: 22 tracks + 2 mixdown tracks
    • Model 16: 14 tracks + 2 mixdown tracks
    • Model 12: 10 tracks + 2 mixdown tracks
    Why Tascam chose to do it this way and provide a completely nonstandard track count is anyone's guess.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020 at 11:43 PM
  5. zozoe

    zozoe New Member

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    So, you don't even require an outboard burner for mixing,,, that is bizarre of Tascam, indeed. Thanks for the great info!!
  6. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

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    @zozoe no, a burner is not a requirement for mixing. A burner simply creates a CD or DVD medium to play the mix files on. Same with the DP machines. I have an older DP-32 and I've never used it to burn a CD, only to play them back and rip from them.
  7. zozoe

    zozoe New Member

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    Hence the need for any old computer to burn a disc from the SD, right?
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  8. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

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    @zozoe if you have a need for physical CDs, then yes, somebody has to burn them whether it's an outside supplier or you yourself. I haven't burned one of my own CDs since my material was available in brick-and-mortar stores like Media Play back in the 90s. These days, my material is on iTunes, Spotify, Amazon, Google, and six or seven others that I can't even remember. Everything is streaming and download today. If I want to play a new mix I just made, I copy it to my mobile phone and I play it in my car via Bluetooth. Seriously, I just don't have a need for physical CDs, but that option is always available. One has to keep in mind that mastering for compact discs is different than mastering for streaming services.

    Edit: CD audio is 16-bit 44.1 kHz. That's a downgrade from 24-bit 48 kHz that I normally work with.
  9. zozoe

    zozoe New Member

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    Hope all are well~~ And thank you MJK for your undying patience w/my often repetitive questions, but again, on the Model 12 & 16, WITHOUT A PC, I can make a full stereo mix w/effects, EQ, & Compression, on the 2 last tracks? In other words, the Model 12, you can record your stuff onto 10 tracks, & then do a full final mix to tracks 11 & 12, or tracks 15 & 16 on the Model 16? OR, I can fill up all the tracks & mix to an outboard CD burner? I understand almost no one here is doing it this way, but all the above can be done? Any benefit to using a CD burner besides giving me 2 more multitrack tracks to use? Also, when tracking any given in instrument, any EQ and/or Compression will be recorded with those settings? So, like if I put EQ & compression on the Bass during basic tracks, all that info will burn to the SD card, & I'm done with doctoring that track until final mixdown where I can do come corrective EQ'ing and add more compression to that one track? BRW, I tried contacting Tascam, but was unable to get to the right person!! All you people are my go-to source~~
    Thanks,
    Kenny
  10. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

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    hi Kenny. I'll try to answer your questions line-by-line, but please understand that I have never laid eyes on any of the "Model" machines. They haven't been imported here yet. I can tell you what I've gleaned from the manual and videos.

    Hope all are well~~ And thank you MJK for your undying patience w/my often repetitive questions, but again, on the Model 12 & 16, WITHOUT A PC, I can make a full stereo mix w/effects, EQ, & Compression, on the 2 last tracks? In other words, the Model 12, you can record your stuff onto 10 tracks, & then do a full final mix to tracks 11 & 12, or tracks 15 & 16 on the Model 16?

    That is the general idea, yes. Sweetwater made a video that shows the Model 24 being used to live mix a session, but they used a DAW to play back the tracks for old-school mixing in the Model 24. I get the impression that these models (especially the Model 12) were designed to be used with a DAW. But, they did create them with those last 2 tracks for mixing to.

    OR, I can fill up all the tracks & mix to an outboard CD burner?

    Forgetting the CD burner for the moment, when reading the entire post, when you say "OR I can fill up all the tracks" your meaning is, can you use 12 tracks for mixdown instead of 10. I don't know. I don't know how you would do that since those last 2 tracks do not have a record arm button. They cannot be individually recorded so they would be a stereo pair. They record anything on the Main bus and that would be a signal management nightmare. Plus, I have no idea whatsoever if the thing will play back the stereo mixdown track and the multitrack session at the same time.

    I understand almost no one here is doing it this way, but all the above can be done?

    Kenny, I'm from Boston, where I was one of the most prolific recording engineers and producers in the 80s. I have never heard of anyone mixing to a CD. We used to mix to DAT but no one does that anymore because we can record so much higher resolution now. 16bit/44.1 kHz is a lower resolution format from what the Tascam machines are using in the 21st century.

    Any benefit to using a CD burner besides giving me 2 more multitrack tracks to use?

    There is no benefit whatsoever to using a CD burner for mixing, and there are a dozen reasons why you should not do that. What you are talking about is mixing to an external device and that's OK. Using a CD burner for that is really not OK. But, we haven't' established that you can actually get those mixdown tracks to play back with the multitrack session. My guess is, it will not work like that.

    Also, when tracking any given in instrument, any EQ and/or Compression will be recorded with those settings? So, like if I put EQ & compression on the Bass during basic tracks, all that info will burn to the SD card, & I'm done with doctoring that track until final mixdown where I can do come corrective EQ'ing and add more compression to that one track?

    Again, that is the general idea. You have to realize that recording something and getting the results you want requires a certain level of expertise and a complete knowledge of the machine used. Whatever is possible to do on the machine requires that you do it properly. We get lots of posts like "my bounce didn't work" etc., because it wasn't executed properly.

    BRW, I tried contacting Tascam, but was unable to get to the right person!! All you people are my go-to source~~

    Don't give up until you do get to the right person. Tascam is the only source that can give you definitive answers to some of these questions.
    ----

    Kenny, the only recording solution that Tascam specifically marketed for those who want to record, mix and master without a computer are the Digital Portastudios. Given your attempts to engineer a higher track count and also not use a computer in the process, why don't you get a DP-24SD or DP-32SD? High track counts, and self-contained complete systems.
  11. zozoe

    zozoe New Member

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    I may be trading off some important stuff, but I like the real time controls for EQ, Comp, & whatever else. The 24 & 32 have a bigger footprint than I have space for, plus everything is menu & jog dial based....
    Kenny
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  12. Mark Richards

    Mark Richards Well-Known Member

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    Although I don't own any of the Models, let me see if I can help break this down into something somewhat easy to understand.

    If you have a Model 12 you have:
    • A digital 10 track multi-track recorder/reproducer (1~10)
    • A digital 2-Track mastering recorder/reproducer (11/12)
    The Model 12 operates 100% in the digital domain. It has "Live" mixer capability; Multi-track Recorder capability; 2-Track Master Recorder capability; and can also perform as a digital control surface for a D.A.W. program for interface, recording and playback via a D.A.W.

    The Models 16 and 24 operate in the analog domain. With the Models 16 and 24, you also have:
    • A digital 14 or 22 Track multi-track recorder/reproducer (1~14 and 1~22 respectively)
    • A digital 2-Track mastering recorder/reproducer (15/16 and 23/24 respectively)
    The Models 16 and 24 have "Live" mixer capability; Multi-track Recorder capability; 2-Track Master Recorder capability. When connected via USB to a computer/D.A.W., the Model 16/24 when set to "PC" can record to/playback from a D.A.W. rather than the internal MTR. However, the Model 16/24 cannot act as a control surface for the D.A.W.

    As far as I can tell:
    • All three use WAV file format for their tracks.
    • All three have a Display Menu option that permits the proprietary 2-Track stereo master WAV files (Tracks 11/12; 15/16; 23/24 respectively) to be exported as a standard integrated stereo WAV file.
    • All three require using a D.A.W. for editing prior to mastering. They have no on-board editing capability.
    • All three can use a D.A.W. as an external multi-track recorder/reproducer, with the added benefit of the D.A.W.'s full editing and sound manipulation capabilities in addition to the sound manipulation capabilites available on the Model 12/16/24.
    There's a Sweetwater video that demonstrates the most efficient and effective way to make use of the Models in a studio setting, IMO. There's also a video in this forum's sticky that demonstrates how the Model 12 acts as a control surface for various D.A.W. programs. As I recall, the Model 12 can only control 8 tracks at a time in the D.A.W.
    =================================================================
    The following is from the Model 24 OM (Nov 2019). The features are the same for the other two Models, although the page numbers may differ.

    Italics/Blue are the words found in the OM current as of November 2019 v#042862302. Text in black is my comments, as best I can decipher the OM. If you stitch together the scattered sections of the OM, you get :

    OM page 37: Recording; and the Block Diagram on Page 160
    REC buttons (1-12, 13/14-19/20, 21/22) select the channels to record to the SD card

    [i.e., when a Channel is set to "Live", PC, or MTR MODE and the Channel REC button is activated, and when the Transport REC button is pressed, a stereo mix of up to 22 channels will be recorded on the MAIN MIX L/R bus MTR Tracks 23/24 - the 2-Track recorder/reproducer. As described below, if the MTR MODE is selected, the Channel input source also will be recorded to the associated MTR track. The Block Diagram suggests it's necessary to engage the Channel MAIN switch to get the signal to the MAIN MIX L/R bus and thence to the SD card].

    When a MODE switch is set to “MTR” [Channels 1~22], the signal from the input jack on that channel will be recorded [to the associated MTR Tracks (1~22) if the channel REC button is activated and the Transport REC button is activated. A stereo mix of up to 22 channels will be recorded simultaneously on the MAIN MIX L/R bus MTR Tracks 23/24 whenever the transport REC button is engaged. The Block Diagram suggests it's necessary to engage the Channel MAIN switch to get the signal to the MAIN MIX L/R bus and thence to the SD card.]

    The MAIN MIX L/R bus does not have a REC button...it is always in recording standby. The signals of the MAIN MIX L/R bus
    [whether "Live", PC, or MTR] will always be recorded [on MAIN MIX L/R bus MTR Tracks 23/24] when the Transport REC button is pressed.
    [The Block Diagram suggests it's necessary to engage the Channel MAIN switch to get the signal to the MAIN MIX L/R bus and thence to the SD card].

    OM page 32: Managing Songs
    For one song, WAV files are saved for 22
    [MTR] tracks and a stereo master file [MAIN MIX L/R bus MTR Tracks 23/24 ]...Songs [and the related WAV files] are created/saved in the MTR folder on the SD card.

    OM page 24: SD MAIN MIX RETURN switch

    When this switch is on (pushed in), playback of the
    stereo master file recorded on the SD card
    [i.e., recorded onto MAIN MIX L/R bus MTR Tracks 23/24 in the MTR folder] is output from the MAIN OUTPUT and AUX OUTPUT MON 1/2 jacks. When this switch is on (pushed in), the sound of the MAIN MIX L/R bus is not output.
    OM page 44 Stereo Mix Export
    MAIN MIX L/R bus files
    [MAIN MIX L/R bus MTR Tracks 23/24] can be converted to a single stereo [WAV] file. Converted stereo [WAV] files are saved in the MUSIC folder.

    OM page 48: Playing
    [previously recorded] WAV files (SD PLAY mode)
    WAV files
    [placed] in the MUSIC folder on an SD card can be played back...Playback signal is sent from channels 21 and 22 [the Bluetooth interface channels].
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020 at 5:38 PM
  13. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

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    The DP machines have real-time controls too - you just have to know how to use them. When mixing, you press the select button for the track of interest, and start turning knobs. But, honestly, outside of FX, who actually adjusts the EQ on a mix, in real time? If you blow one section you have to keep doing the mix over and over. It's better to do a bounce of those sections and then mix steady-state. This is the stuff of recording engineering.

    What seems to bother most new users is the "print FX to track" issue of the DP machines. We get that a lot on the Forum. Typically this is viewed as a "limitation" on the DP machines. You cannot record the FX (I did not say dynamics) to tracks directly when multitracking. But, that is actually a protection from committing to a certain FX during tracking, that doesn't work when mixing. Since one can bounce tracks and add FX, or even a separate FX track altogether (due to the high track count of the DP machines), there isn't any real reason to record FX to track. That's the best way to ensure that you don't (for example) have a drum track that you recorded with reverb that sounded cool on it's own, but when mixed with instruments you recorded later, doesn't fit anymore. This is how we work in the professional recording world.

    As for "everything is menu & job dial based" I'm not sure how to answer that. Every thing you implement has to be configured somehow. You have to adjust something. The DP machines have mixer controls, so things like EQ, Pan, FX sends, are all knobs. You can change to the mixer screen if you want, but the knobs work on whatever track or input is selected. When you choose a reverb or other effect, you have to set it up. The jog wheel and cursor buttons are a very convenient way of doing that. The jog wheel isn't used for assigning/record arming/recording/playback/RR/FW/muting/grouping/selecting/bouncing, or using the faders. So I don't really see the issue. You are going to have to adjust things on any device you use, and they all have menus.