Someone using Reaper 6 with the DM3200?

Discussion in 'TASCAM DM-3200 & DM-4800' started by snafu, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. snafu

    snafu Active Member

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    Hi folks,

    happy new year to everyone, I hope you're all well and productive :)
    New year - new gear. Today I though, it would maybe a great time to pass on to another DAW. I use mine (Samplitude) for nearly 20 years now, but there are many things I'm not so happy with.
    Anyway: Reaper it is, and I downloaded it earlier this day.

    first things first: if I can't use my good 'ol DM3200 - it's a showstopper right at the go! right now, I am trying to get along with Reaper in terms of making use of my faders and knobs, remote controlled by the DM.

    Here is the problem:
    I can make use of the fader groups 1-8, I can mute, pan and solo these channels, I can fully use the transport bar, and I can use the master fader for the master bus.

    Adding a nineth channel leads to strange behaviour: Faders 1 and 9 on the DM move together, as if they were linked. Adding a tenth, faders 2 and 10 will move accordingly.

    Here's how I set things up:
    - opened options
    - went to controls
    - First, I added an instance of Mackie Control Universal
    a) Midi in --> MIDIIN5
    b) Midi out --> MIDIOUT5
    - then, I added a Mackie Control Extender
    a) Midi in --> MIDIIN6
    b) Midi out --> MIDIOUT6

    For Samplitude, the setting is Mackie Control, and Mackie Extender. Maybe Control Universal is a whole another protocol?

    I played around with different combinations (two MCUs, two MCEs, first an MCE than MCU...), but it's not working as expected? Anyone here with more insight on this?

    greetings
    snafu
  2. dmartin

    dmartin New Member

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  3. snafu

    snafu Active Member

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    Thanks for your reply, dmartin! I went over the manual quickly - so, I guess this is some type of mapper? From the forum thread you provided I can see it is possible to have a neat and tight implementation, so I'll give it a try.

    I found and general set up over at the reaper-forum. So if this works, things would already be fine.

    Can you tell me the advantages of csurf_klinke vs. a primitive set up given in the reaper-forum?
    I did not understand the problem zerascal had (customization via actions list), but I guess it's about using faders and potis in another context (maybe while using the potis for EQing or so)?

    Since I'm brand new to Reaper, maybe you can help me with a little guideline:

    - I need control for the 16 channels of the DM3200, so all the faders, the channel potis, mute, solo and record buttons, AND the master fader.
    (In section 2.2? of the manual there's reference for setting up a second MCU_klinke, so I guess that's the part where this comes in?)

    - It'd be a charm, if I could use specific potis for EQing (this actually worked in Samplitude by default for the track EQs). In SAM, the Mackie Protocol provided poti control for the potis of channels 1 - 9; channel 1 was LoFrequency, channel 2 LoQ, channel 3 LoGain, channel 4 MidFrequency, and so on.

    Thank you very much, have good one!
    snafu
  4. dmartin

    dmartin New Member

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    snafu:
    Set up is the same as you have done. Just use the Mackie Control (klinke v0.6.4) (dev6.7) and the Mackie Control Extender (Klinke vo.6.4.1) (dev 7.8) in the drop down menu. Bank size 16 for mackie control. Surface offset 8 for the mackie extender.
    What you can do with the Klinke extension is;
    1 have all fader, pan, solo, mute, rec. arm buttons working;
    2 bank with F1, F2 buttons;
    3 move one track at a time with F5, F6 buttons;
    4 jug/shuttle with scroll wheel;
    5 up/down buttons and left/right buttons scroll horizontally and vertically in arranger.
    6 hold down shift button and push up arrow button once, now the up/down , left/right buttons zoom horizontally and vertically in arranger;
    7 holding down the ctrl button and pushing F1-F8 locates to markers 1-8;
    8 holding down the shift button and pushing F1-F8 can be any action you want.These actions are assigned in Reaper by going to actions list and choosing what action you want and then using add shortcut for selected action;
    9 track names and pan/volume values are displayed on screen 16 at a time.
    10 the track selection buttons can be use to not only select tracks but also temporally group tracks together; useful for things like adjusting multiple track volumes at once. This can be done by selecting old track selection behavior.
    Unlike in Sequoia/Samplitude EQ is not controllable in Reaper on the Tascam. I use a korg nano control for all plug in editing; mapping all the plugins individually. Videos for this and many other things are available from Kenny Gioia.
    http://www.kennymania.com/reaper-videos/

    The Reaper Blog also has many video tutorials.
    http://reaperblog.net/
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
  5. dmartin

    dmartin New Member

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    mjk:
    "If you pull the fader down on the console, and the fader moves on Reaper, then you are double processing if the audio passes through the console."

    This is not true when using the remote layer on the Dm 3200/4800 .
    Snafu is not asking for opinions about using expensive mixing desks as control surfaces, or anything about the Behringer x32.This is a surprising comment coming from a moderator and staff member.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
    -mjk- likes this.
  6. snafu

    snafu Active Member

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    Well, though I'm totally on your side, this isn't my use-case scenario. My DM is way more than a DAW-controller! My whole studio is in a way or another connected to the DM, plus a lot of routing can be done there, without ever touching my patchbays. I can run my studio effectively without switching on my PC, which is a great deal, when "just" rehearsing. And if I record other bands or musicians, I can at least rely on full set back of all settings if I need to. Of course, that's what any DAW can do, but only AFTER the signals came through! Here, I have each channel configurations quickly on my hands - total recall. Controlling my DAW is a sweet bonus for me, since I don't have to use any extra device. Switching flawlessly between both worlds is a luxus only few can enjoy ;-)

    @dmartin: thank you very much! These are all the infos I needed, and the video is a great benefit for me as far as I can see! I'll definitively come back here to report how things turned out for me. Meanwhile I've been in touch with zerascal, who told me that further customization is not available, due to the use of Mackie protocol. I'll dig into that later. Now I must check things out for my own :)

    Thanks everyone!
    Arjan P and Peter Batah like this.
  7. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

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    @dmartin, @snafu and I have some history on the forum. He is using it as a mixer with the audio engines, and some cool other stuff.

    I understand that aspect, thanks.

    If you were offended, then please accept my apology. No comment is etched in stone and I've withdrawn it.
    Peter Batah likes this.
  8. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

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    @snafu feel free to DM me about the Reaper side of the process. But I expect with your background you already have it running well.
  9. snafu

    snafu Active Member

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    Thank you very much -mjk-; in fact I found the process for reaper ;)
    Obviously it was too late - otherwise I would have read the entry about "track offset" for what it is^^ So, here a quick recap:
    - The settings on behalf of the Tascam are pretty standard:
    1. Open (REMOTE SCREEN).
    2. Set Machine Ctrl --> M MC Steinberg ID=01
    2. Set Ext. Ctrl. 16 MC Steinberg
    Done.

    In Reaper:
    1. Open "Options", chose "Preferences" and then "Control Surfaces"
    2. Add a new Mackie Control Universal with MIDI-In = 5, and MIDI-Out = 5
    3. Add a new Mackie Control Extender with MIDI-In = 6, and MIDI-Out = 6
    All that's left is to set the faders offset to 8. Leave the "Tweak size" untouched with it's default value of 9.

    This will give you access to:
    1. Control to all faders 1 - 16 to it's corresponding tracks (you may of course add more channels. These then will be handled by stepping up or down in your Mixer, or by selecting a track in the reaper mixer. The nearby tracks will be mapped to their corresponding channels on your DM)
    2. Make use of
    - Mute buttons
    - Solo buttons
    - Pan potis
    for each track individually.
    3. Your arrow buttons on the DM --> you can scroll through your project horizontally, as well as vertically.
    4. The transport control
    - Play button
    - Rec button (you must press rec and play simultaneously to actually record)
    - stepwise for-/backwards
    - to start /to end
    5. The master fader

    This is some pretty solid basic control.

    There is - however - another tool you can use: Klinke v6.4, which you can find under the link dmartin provided earlier. Essentialy it is a mapper.
    I also tested this one, and here's what you get:
    1. all of the above plus
    2. 16 different actions to use in Reaper (shift and/or ctrl buttons with the F1 - F8 buttons on the Tascam)

    That's all to my knowledge. I must state here, that I couldn't try out everything I wanted yet, but if you're interested in this topic stay tuned: I will definitively post my experience, at the end of the week, at the latest. Since I want to move from Samplitude (my current version: Pro X3 Suite) to Reaper, it's somewhat interesting to see, which the up- and downsides of design, performance, and connectivity to controlers for both of them are!

    Until then - have a great time, you crazy guys with those crazy boards :D
    snafu
    -mjk-, Arjan P and Peter Batah like this.
  10. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

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    Should this topic be a sticky?
  11. snafu

    snafu Active Member

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    Hey there - as promised, here is my summary:

    So, these are my findings after a bit over a week, while exploring Reaper, and it's connectivity with the DM3200.

    First off, I have little to add to what I posted earlier! With the above mentioned set up, you can use all oft he DM’s faders to control Reaper while in remote mode. You can also make use of your DM’s mute and solo buttons, and the pan potis. Of course you can also use the master fader. In addition to all of that, your arrow up/down/left and right buttons oft he DM can be used to scroll through your project. Also, the transport controls are behaving as expected. This basic configurations (with the exact same set up DM-wise and DAW-wise) can be accessed with Samplitude Pro X3.

    The difference is that by pressing the EQ-button on the DM you can control Samplitude’s channel EQ, in a pretty neat way:

    DM channel 1 controls the frequency for low (band 1)

    DM channel 2 controls the q-factor for low

    DM channel 3 controls the gain for low

    DM channel 4 controls the frequency for mid (band 2)

    DM channel 5 controls the q-factor for mid

    DM channel 6 controls the gain for mid

    DM channel 7 controls the frequency for high (band 4)

    DM channel 8 controls the q-factor for high

    DM channel 9 controls the gain for high

    If you leave everything untouched that is all you get so far. It may look like a crude or rudimentary control oft he DAW, but to be honest: it’s all I needed so far. When using Samplitude’s build in EQ, it was quiet comfortable working with it.

    Reaper on the other hand doesn’t grant you access to control the rea-EQ :-( Unfortunately, the midi-learn function does not work with the potis, at least as far as I found out so far. This is not a flaw of your DM – more of the Mackie Protocol I suppose! There is definitively MIDI going out when moving the potis (otherwise Samplitude‘s EQ wouldn’t react).

    Also as stated earlier you can make use of the Klinke mapper. It does provide you additional functionality: the Ctrl, Shift and F1-F8 keys on your DM. 16 additional Reaper commands. Another user, zerascal, made use of the same keys in Samplitude, and managed to get 32 (?) commands working (I suppose without Klinke, though I’m not sure right now – I did not test it with Samplitude).
    [Thanks a ton, zerascal, for you help!]


    So, to conclude, let’s have a quick look at both DAWs: I consider to make the jump to Reaper, after having used Samplitude for more than two decades. I could bring up a lot of reasons, but let’s get one thing straight first: Samplitude is a powerful DAW; it had non-destructive wav-handling long before other DAWs used it. It is the inventor oft he hybrid engine. AFAIK it made use of multi CPU usage long before others did. Despite all it’s glory, things changed back in 2000 when Magix bought Samplitude. The company has a widespread portfolio with lots of other video, audio and photo-software, and – to be honest – I think lately Samplitude has gotten out of their focus. The current version, Pro X4 seems to be pretty stable, and has some interesting new features; but for the time being, I’ll stick to Pro X3.

    Reaper on the other hand is a child of the early 2000s. It is highly customizable, uses a hilariously flexible internal routing, and can be tweaked like any have-it-your-way-burger: even complex macros can be made by the end user.

    It wouldn’t be fair to state I would miss any functionality in Reaper: one can hardly explore the whole program within a week. So all I can say right now is: for the moment, I prefer to use Samplitude over Reaper, because I can control the EQ for each channel comfortably from my DM. Should I find a way to get the same functionality with Reaper, I glady change DAWs.

    Hope this was a bit informative/usefull for you, guys. Have a great weekend,

    greetings

    snafu
  12. zerascal

    zerascal New Member

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    Thanks for the report Snafu,

    Yeah it's too bad that Reaper can't recognize the midi going out from the DM3200 in Mackie control remote like Samplitude can.
    Otherwise when I had problem with Samplitude automation, I would have switch to Reaper.
  13. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

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    Hey @snafu. Patrick Gilles-Maillot uses OSC to accomplish that kind of control with the EQ and other Reaper functions, but I think because of the console type. Not sure if that puts you onto a solution, but if you could use MIDI-to-OSC that theoretically would work.

    You do have transport controls working ok?

    @zerascal, I was under the impression that Reaper was fully Mackie compatible. I admit I use Reaper with OSC, but I've also gotten Reaper to respond to basic MIDI control by right-clicking the Play button and making the appropriate config changes there. But I'm a first-grader when it comes to MIDI control of Reaper.
    snafu likes this.
  14. zerascal

    zerascal New Member

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    @mjk, Yes Reaper is fully Mackie compatible! The only bug is that, in midi learn, Reaper doesn't see the midi messages send by the DM3200 via Mackie Control mode remote. So we can't configure our Dm3200 Mackie control like we want… In Samplitude we can configure like we want because midi learn of Samplitude see DM3200 Mackie control midi messages.
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  15. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

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    @zerascal thanks for the explanation. It seems that figuring out what the 2 DAW systems do differently is crucial to getting it working with Reaper. Or, somehow taking the learned MIDI command file from Samplitude and applying it to Reaper.

    But something is bugging me. I'm reading that it won't work in learn mode but does it work at all otherwise, for any other function? If MIDI commands are making it to Reaper I would expect Reaper to record them too. Are you saying that Reaper doesn't respond to any Mackie MIDI control messages?
  16. dmartin

    dmartin New Member

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    There is anther use for the arrow keys : if you hold down shift and press the up arrow key once then release the shift key the arrow keys will now zoom horizontally and vertically in the arranger view when using the Klinke extension.
    As far as Reaper recognizing other MIDI events generated from for example F9-F12 or the other encoder mode keys; MIDI OX can remap those commands to ones Reaper will recognize.
    Jamsire has a video for Cubase which points to a way that the Tascam " user defined layer" can be implemented to map these keys as well.

    https://www.tascamforums.com/threads/cubase-midi-controller-video.2127/

    I have tested both these methods; MIDI OX,and the" user remote layer" , but for me mapping each plugin to an inexpensive Korg nanoKontrol proved to be less time consuming and simpler.
    I also use Sequoia,(almost the same as Samplitude Pro X), and though I prefer the way Sequoia works with the DM 3200, the menu system as opposed to drag and drop, and lack of all the customization put Reaper ahead for me as far as ease of use until I need to do Mastering.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
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  17. zerascal

    zerascal New Member

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    Like I said Reaper respond perfectly to any DM3200 Mackie Control messages like if it was an original Mackie Controller . It's just that you can't configure like you want any of these controls. It just respond like Klinke as write and it seems not easy to modify his implementation he made for original Mackie Controller
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  18. zerascal

    zerascal New Member

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    Good idea dmartin with midi OX, you should try it Snafu.

    the problem with "User define layer", because it's just midi 128 steps, so you loose the high resolution faders of Mackie control or Hui control ...
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  19. snafu

    snafu Active Member

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    Thanks everyone to the info.

    I came across Midi-OX once - but totally forgot about it, so this might indeed worthwile a try.
    Anyway: the only functionality missing, is to be able to assign controlers to certain software controls (midi learn).
    There is a ton of emulators, mappers etc. out there - I guess it's totaly doable with enough time; for the time being, I'll stick to the music for now :) But at the end of january I have a few days off, and then I'll have this on my agenda again :)
    -mjk- likes this.

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