TS or TRS cable for this insert plan Or use a bus instead Or

Discussion in 'Model 24/16/12' started by Hammarlund, Dec 4, 2020.

  1. Hammarlund

    Hammarlund Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2020
    Messages:
    60
    Likes:
    33
    Gear:
    Model 12
    I am sending a mic & guitar into my Tascam 12. I need to duplicate those signals for a harmonizer.

    I assume (maybe I'm wrong) that I should go into the T12 first and then pull them out using the insert jack. I'm not actually running an insert, as I do not plan to return the effect to the same channels. Instead, I want to use the inserts (or a bus) as a duplicate output, and I'm going to return on separate "wet" channels.

    OPTION ONE: INSERT JACK. TS OR TRS?
    I know this can be done for channel #1 and 2 by plugging in halfway, but I've never tried it before and don't know what to use. My effects box requires XLR on its end. What do I use on the Tascam side to make this work: TS or TRS? And of course this can't be balanced--there aren't enough clicks--so how's the fidelity?

    OPTION TWO: BUS? CONTROL ROOM?
    Is it better to use a bus (I don't 100% understand the signal flow here) or an insert?

    I know that I can easily run those two channels to SUB--I don't really have much else on SUB at this point. But as far as I can see, I'd be sending post-EQ and post-compressor, which I don't want.

    I think the "send point" control only affects SD card recording and there is no option to (for example) send to SUB or AUX1 without going through EQ and comp. Am I wrong?

    OPTION THREE: IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY?
    If one of you lifetime-recording-studio types is thinking "Every studio has this issue; why isn't he just using a cheap feeblejarber box like everyone else?" the answer is simple: I don't know what the so-to-speak feeblejarber box is, or that it exists, and so I don't own one. Feel free to enlighten me! :)
  2. Logrinn

    Logrinn New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2020
    Messages:
    33
    Likes:
    23
    From:
    Southern Sweden
    Gear:
    Model 12
    Depending on the routing options in the harmonizer you could perhaps go directly into it with the mic and guitar and send both dry and wet outputs from it to the Tascam 12. Don't know if your harmonizer has that kind of routing options though.
    Or ...
    Split the signals from the mic and guitar. Go directly in to the Tascam with one set of signals while the other feeds the harmonizer. Feed the wet output from the harmonizer also into the Tascam.
  3. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2018
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes:
    901
    From:
    Hukou Township, Hsinchu County, Taiwan
    Gear:
    DP-32, | 2A Mixer, A3440
    Since you are describing a "send effect" you should use a bus to send the appropriate signal to the outboard device and then bring that back in on another input.
    Mark Richards likes this.
  4. Hammarlund

    Hammarlund Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2020
    Messages:
    60
    Likes:
    33
    Gear:
    Model 12
    "Since you are describing a "send effect" you should use a bus to send the appropriate signal to the outboard device and then bring that back in on another input."

    I considered that but it isn't ideal: I want to hear a wet signal because my room sucks and I need EQ, and I also want a set signal for the main mix.

    However, I want to send a dry signal to the effect.

    The T12 won't send dry signals through do both at the same time, at least not easily.

    I'll try options #2 and 3, but for other newbies, it looks like my options are:

    a) Get a mic splitter, which will solve my problem for $50 and a cable:

    Mic >> splitter;
    splitter1>>T12 channel 1;
    splitter2>> effect>>T12 channel 2

    b) Use the T12 sub bus, plus a "spare" t12 mono channel, as a mic splitter. This uses up a T12 recording channel and also uses up the sub bus, and involves an extra A/D/A for everything, so it's not as idea:

    Mic >>t12 channel 1, leave eq/compressor/effects off and send only to sub not main, so I don't hear it.

    Channel 1>> sub (pan centered)--channel 1 will basically be wasted and will never go to main mix, though I could use it as a location to bounce things I suppose

    Sub left >> T12 channel 2 (this channel WILL use effects/eq/compressor so will be sent to main mix)

    sub right >> effect >> back to T12 channel 3

    c) Use the insert jack of Channel 1.

    Mic >> T12 ch1 (which can now use EQ/comp/effects because unlike the busses, insert pulls signal out prior to those.)
    T12 ch1 insert >> effect
    Effect output >> T12 Ch 2
  5. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2018
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes:
    901
    From:
    Hukou Township, Hsinchu County, Taiwan
    Gear:
    DP-32, | 2A Mixer, A3440
    Depending upon how you monitor, you can put the FX and EQ on the return channel.
  6. Hammarlund

    Hammarlund Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2020
    Messages:
    60
    Likes:
    33
    Gear:
    Model 12
    I am pretty confused by the whole effects routing thing, to be honest.
    -mjk- likes this.
  7. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2018
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes:
    901
    From:
    Hukou Township, Hsinchu County, Taiwan
    Gear:
    DP-32, | 2A Mixer, A3440
    That's certainly understandable. These are all complicated devices. What I do is, monitor on the channel that I'm recording to, rather than on the input, where possible. So, if you use a bus to send to your outboard gear, you can bring that gear back into the console on it's own channels and monitor them, along with the channel that you're sending to the bus. Or, not. However you need it to be.
  8. Hammarlund

    Hammarlund Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2020
    Messages:
    60
    Likes:
    33
    Gear:
    Model 12
    My plan is now:
    Mic to splitter.
    Splitter to channel 1 of T12 and also to effect.
    Wet harmony from effect into channel 2 of T12

    Effect also needs a live feed for generating harmony chords. I plan to input the guitar and keyboard directly into the T12. I'll run an output from Aux1 to the effect, and I can then easily select the source for chording from any input on the T12 just by tweaking the Aux1 pots.
  9. -mjk-

    -mjk- Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2018
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes:
    901
    From:
    Hukou Township, Hsinchu County, Taiwan
    Gear:
    DP-32, | 2A Mixer, A3440
    I feed my TC-Helicon VLT2 with a 2 buses: One for the audio input to the device, and the other for the key reference signal. Works great.
  10. Hammarlund

    Hammarlund Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2020
    Messages:
    60
    Likes:
    33
    Gear:
    Model 12
    I wish I had that!

    I use a Voicelive Play Acoustic, which has much worse routing and less control. The crucial differences:
    • Functionally, if you want a mono harmony channel, the Play only has ONE RETURN CHANNEL (since one is always wasted on the reference.)
    • This is because the Play Acoustic only has two outputs, where the VL has three.
    • Making it even worse, the Play forces you to return the reference signal through at least one of the two outputs, even if the reference signal is coming through the aux miniplug!
    That is the source of my problems. If you didn't know that issue w/ Voicelive Play then none of this would make sense :)

    My current plan is to use aux1 bus from T12 to send the reference signal (guitar, keys, bass, etc.).

    I will use a single channel of the VoiceLive to return the harmony.

    The main reason to use a splitter is twofold:

    First, I'm already using aux1 for reference signal, and aux2 for effects. If I send the voicelive through sub1 then I'm out of buses. It's a lot cheaper and easier to install a splitter than to get a bigger mixer w/ more buses!

    Second, Sub1 is post-EQ. I like to use EQ and effects while I sing, it makes me sound better and feel more confident :)

    But I want to record a dry no-EQ signal, to allow for tweaking later (whether in T12 or a DAW in a DAW). If I use sub1, I can't do both: Any EQ applied to solo channel will show up on Sub1, and will "print" onto harmony channel.

    I can get around it by "burning" a channel:
    a) Dry vocals into channel 1 with NO EQ/COMP; send that to Sub
    b) Send one Sub output to channel 2; use that for EQ/comp;
    c) send the other Sub output to Voicelive, and return to channel 3.

    And of course I can also get around it by using the "insert" jack, which brings me back to square 1 :)