V-track quirks?

[Stew71]

Hi all.

I've been using my DP24 tonight, and have got a bit confused about the operation of V-tracks.

I have two vocal tracks (on 11 and 12; I'm using two tracks because it's a very wordy and moderately fast song, and this allows me to sing half of each verse without garbling the breath pause in the middle). Using auto-punch and repeat, and working through the song in sections, I have recorded each verse 5-6 times. All running smoothly so far.

Rather than comp the tracks track on the unit, I decided to bounce each take to a stereo track (13/14-23/24; 11 and 12 panned fully left and right), switching the v-tracks each time. Then I exported the tracks.

What I don't understand, is that aside from the final section, all my export tracks are exactly the same - and yet I definitely recorded a number of different performances for each verse section.

When I went back to my original tracks (11 and 12) and flipped thru the v-tracks - they are identical, except for the end section. (And I didn't even record the end section last! I went back after warming up and redid the verses.)

I just can't figure out how the v-tracks operate. At first I thought, maybe you have to assign per section (so, vt3 for verse 1, say, and vt5 for verse 2), but that doesn't seem to be the case. It's one vt assignment per physical track.

Perhaps it locks all earlier (song position-wise) v-tracks according to the final recorded section (position wise)? So, imagining a two-section song (A and B) - if vt3 was active on song Section A when I start a repeat /auto-punch on Section B, recording 6 passes on that section, then all vts for Section A are locked/pointed to the contents of vt3, even though there are 6 vts listed (which still vary for Section B).

It's really confusing. Am I missing something obvious here? Does the DP require a more disciplined/uniform approach to using its v-track feature?

 

[Phil Tipping]

Are you sure you are making each vtrack current before bouncing? The blob on the virtual screen shows the current/active vtrack for the currently selected track. You have to select the required track first and confirm its number appears at the top-right of the screen, then move the highlight to the desired vtrack, and then press F4 (load) to confirm.

If you're confused, the way I visualise virtual tracks is to imagine there's an 8-way switch on all tracks. That switch can only be in one position at any one time, but each switch is independent of the others.
The switch determines which of the 8 vtracks is current/active. In the virtual track screen, the vtrack marked with a blob shows the position of this 'switch'.

Any operation you perform on tracks (such as recording, bouncing, mixing, editing, import, export) only applies to the current/active track.

Auto-punch stores each take onto a separate vtrack, so in order to hear them or process/bounce them, each one has to made current first.

There's a tutorial video on virtual tracks here.

 

[Stew71]

Thanks Phil. Yes, I definitely selected the relevant vtrack by hitting 'Load' and seeing the selector move. As I say, it's strange that I have duplicates in the vtracks for the most part (my performances can be pretty wooden at times, but they're never identical!) expect for the end section, which wasn't even recorded last.

I'm obviously either missing/forgetting something I did wrong, confusing the machine by a somewhat scattergun approach to moving through the project, or the vtracks don't always work quite as I'd expect. I have hit this before with vtracks and just kind of ignored it, but I'd like to understand whether there's a problem with what I'm doing, or something else.

I was just thinking of doing a simple (albeit tedious) test, something like this. I'm thinking it might highlight any quirks (such as there being a difference if there's an existing single take on the track before starting to create vtracks, or if working backwards through the project rather than forwards), or if it all works as it presumably should, then I can chalk it up to PICNIC*:

Using a test project with 7 sections (A-G), 2 bars each

i) From initial !Factory state:

T1: Record a whole, unbroken 14-bar pass (A-G sections)

T2: Record A-C pass only

T3: Record E-G pass only

T4: Record A-B and E-F pass only

T5: Record A-C then overdub B-D

T6: No recording


ii) Duplicate (clone) all tracks to 7-12


iii) Tracks 1-6:

Loop B section, record 6 passes (auto-punch & repeat) [check ok?]

Loop D section, record 6 passes (auto-punch & repeat) [check ok?]

Loop E section, record 6 passes (auto-punch & repeat) [check ok?]

(Record voc “B1… B2… E5...E6” etc)


iv) Tracks 7-12:

Loop E section, record 6 passes (auto-punch & repeat) [check ok?]

Loop D section, record 6 passes (auto-punch & repeat) [check ok?]

Loop B section, record 6 passes (auto-punch & repeat) [check ok?]


v) All tracks:

Check validity of different v-tracks - are all passes present as expected?


*Problem In Chair, Not In Computer

 

[Phil Tipping]

An experiment is always useful so let us know how you get on. Make sure you're on the latest firmware first.
Not seen PICNIC before, but a good one to remember

 

[Mark Richards]

Have you consulted the posts in the Production Tips sticky that talk about using virtual tracks and using autopunch with virtual tracks? Perhaps something in those posts might be helpful.

 

[Stew71]

An update: I haven't yet done my test, but I have just hit a very similar issue with a new recording on a new project. At this point, I'm thinking it could be a card issue, or a need for a preferences reset perhaps. Or, as below, it is indeed a quirk of recording multiple takes on different sections of the same physical track. I think I have the most up-to date firmware (1.21 0087).

What happened:
I recorded a few bars (=Part 1) using auto-punch and repeat. There were only two takes, the first had an error. I selected/loaded VT2 on the pop up.

I then recorded a few more bars (later in the song; =Part 2). I only recorded one take on this section (although still in autopunch/repeat). When I stopped recording, I got the VT pop-up screen, which showed as expected VT1 and VT2.

When I listened back to Part 1, VT1 and VT2 are now identical. On Part 2, VT1 has my recording, VT2 is empty.

So basically, during the Part 2 recording, even though VT2 was already selected for the track, the machine recorded onto VT1, but at the same time somehow copied the contents (or more likely 'pointed to') of Part1/VT2 to Part1 /VT1 at the same time, resulting in a duplicate VT1 and VT2 for Part 1.

Perhaps I should start any new Parts on VT1 in future? I will try that and see if it avoids the overwriting/erroneous VT pointing issue that seems to be the heart of this.

I'd be really interested to hear if anyone else can replicate this.

 

[Mark Richards]

To be clear:
Part 1 Process
On Track 1/Vtrack 1
a. Set the In/Out points to record a few bars.
b. Arm Track 1.
c. Engage Autopunch and Repeat functions.
d. Press Record.
e. Play the few bars you want to record.

Expected Result

1. Autopunch started at the In-point and stopped at the Out-Point.
2. Track 1/Vtrack 1 was recorded between the In/Out points.
3. Repeat advanced automatically to Track 1/Vtrack 2, entered record mode, and proceeded to record on Track1/Vtrack 2 between the In/Out points whatever was played at that time.
4. Track 1/Vtrack 1 and Track 1/Vtrack 2 contain recorded material between the In/Out points that were set initially.
5. Track 1/Vtrack 1 (Part 1) has performance errors and will not be used.
   
6. Track 1/Vtrack 2 (Part 1) is error-free and Track 1/Vtrack 2 will be used going forward.

Part 2 Process
a. Load Track 1/Vtrack 2 to make Track 1/Vtrack 2 the active track.
b. Track 1/Vtrack 2 contains the desired error-free Part 1 material recorded between the original In/Out Points.
c. Set new In/Out points to record additional material (Part 2) on Track 1/Vtrack 2.
d. Arm Track 1.
e. Engage Autopunch and Repeat functions.
f. Press Record.
g. Play the few new (Part 2) bars you want to record on Track 1/Vtrack2 between the new In/Out points.

Expected Result

1. Track 1/Vtrack 1 was not active/used because Part 1 has a performance error.
2. Track 1/Vtrack 2 contains the error-free Part 1 material recorded between the original In/Out points.
3. Autopunch started at the new In-point and stopped at the new Out-Point.
4. Track 1/Vtrack 2 recorded the new (Part 2) material between the new In/Out points.
5. The Stop button was pressed, so Repeat did not advance automatically to Track 1/Vtrack 3.
6. Track 1/Vtrack 2 contains all the recorded material: Error-free Part 1; and error-free Part 2.

 

[Phil Tipping]

Not sure I'm following this correctly, but are we really querying if the auto-punch-repeat system always starts recording onto vtrack-1 no matter what the current vtrack is when you start the process?

If it started recording the takes onto the current vtrack onwards, it would either have to wrap round, making the 8 takes appear in a strange order, or stop after less takes.

I've not tried this yet, but it suggests that if you start the process when a different vtrack is loaded (i.e. not 1), it would use this as the source audio, which might lead to some confusion when reviewing the results...
Update: just thought, if you started on a vtrack which wasn't 1, would the auto-punch system overwrite it as it worked its way through the vtracks?

 

[Stew71]

To be clear:
Part 1 Process
On Track 1/Vtrack 1
a. Set the In/Out points to record a few bars.
b. Arm Track 1.
c. Engage Autopunch and Repeat functions.
d. Press Record.
e. Play the few bars you want to record.

Expected Result

1. Autopunch started at the In-point and stopped at the Out-Point.
2. Track 1/Vtrack 1 was recorded between the In/Out points.
3. Repeat advanced automatically to Track 1/Vtrack 2, entered record mode, and proceeded to record on Track1/Vtrack 2 between the In/Out points whatever was played at that time.
4. Track 1/Vtrack 1 and Track 1/Vtrack 2 contain recorded material between the In/Out points that were set initially.
5. Track 1/Vtrack 1 (Part 1) has performance errors and will not be used.
   
6. Track 1/Vtrack 2 (Part 1) is error-free and Track 1/Vtrack 2 will be used going forward.

Part 2 Process
a. Load Track 1/Vtrack 2 to make Track 1/Vtrack 2 the active track.
b. Track 1/Vtrack 2 contains the desired error-free Part 1 material recorded between the original In/Out Points.
c. Set new In/Out points to record additional material (Part 2) on Track 1/Vtrack 2.
d. Arm Track 1.
e. Engage Autopunch and Repeat functions.
f. Press Record.
g. Play the few new (Part 2) bars you want to record on Track 1/Vtrack2 between the new In/Out points.

Expected Result

1. Track 1/Vtrack 1 was not active/used because Part 1 has a performance error.
2. Track 1/Vtrack 2 contains the error-free Part 1 material recorded between the original In/Out points.
3. Autopunch started at the new In-point and stopped at the new Out-Point.
4. Track 1/Vtrack 2 recorded the new (Part 2) material between the new In/Out points.
5. The Stop button was pressed, so Repeat did not advance automatically to Track 1/Vtrack 3.
6. Track 1/Vtrack 2 contains all the recorded material: Error-free Part 1; and error-free Part 2.

That's right. And all as expected, except that T1/Part1/VT1 has been effectively overwritten, to become a duplicate of T1/Part 1/VT2. I don't think that should happen.

 

[Stew71]

Phil, I can't quote your post for some reason (maybe it's my v-track gremlin striking again!) but I think your point is a good one:
"just thought, if you started on a vtrack which wasn't 1, would the auto-punch system overwrite it as it worked its way through the vtracks?"

I will do a little test later to see if it works better (re)setting the VT to VT1 for each new song part.

I do think that overwriting earlier v-tracks is a weird behaviour, and I can't see the point, but as long as I know how the system works & get to keep all my takes, I'll be happy with that!

(It's highly unlikely to be added now I suppose, but if Tascam made this essentially a comping feature, so that once VTs had been recorded for different song parts, you could select VT3 for part 1, VT1 for part 2, VT4 for part 3 and so on, that would be ideal.)

 

[Mark Richards]

That's right. And all as expected, except that T1/Part1/VT1 has been effectively overwritten, to become a duplicate of T1/Part 1/VT2. I don't think that should happen.

I replicated your scenario and confirm your result.

Using the Autopunch/Repeat functions simultaneously
After completing the recordings of Part 1 and Part 2:

Making Track 1/Vtrack 1 active,​

1. The original Track 1/Vtrack 1 Part 1 with errors was overwritten on Track 1/Vtrack 1 by the error-free Part 1 material that had been recorded on Track1/Vtrack 2.
2. Newly added Part 2 (recorded on Track 1/Vtrack 2) is also on Track 1/Vtrack 1 following the error-free Part 1 material that overwrote the original Part 1 with errors.
3. The original Track 1/Vtrack 1 Part 1 material with errors no longer exists.

Making Track 1/Vtrack 2 active,​

1. Error-free Part 1 that was recorded on Track 1/Vtrack 2 is still present.
2. The newly added Part 2 (that had been recorded on Track 1/Vtrack 2) does not exist on Track 1/Vtrack 2.

Using Only Autopunch to record Part 2 at a new location on Track 1/Vtrack 2
Track 1/Vtrack 1 retains Part 1 material that has errors.
Track 1/Vtrack 2 retains error-free Part 1, and new Part 2 material.

 

[Stew71]

Thanks Mark. (Again, I can't quote the post for some reason).

So if I read your test right, the overwriting issue - or, the 'not recording at all' issue in the second scenario - happens with autopunch and repeat, but not with autopunch only.

This does seem like a bug to me.

I will contact Tascam about it.

Edit: Can other people replicate this on other units? I think Mark and I are both using Mark 1 DP-24s.

 

[Mark Richards]

Having had a chance to reflect, I don't see this issue as a bug in the FW.

Since Autopunch automatically resets to the selected In point and plays through on the next Vtrack to the selected Out point, there's no reason to use the Repeat function together with the Autopunch function if only working on a section of the song.

It's highly unlikely to be added now I suppose, but if Tascam made this essentially a comping feature, so that once VTs had been recorded for different song parts, you could select VT3 for part 1, VT1 for part 2, VT4 for part 3 and so on, that would be ideal.

You can build a multitrack song that way using Autopunch. IMO, doing it one section of the song at a time (Part 1, 2, 3, etc.) for each vocal and instrument track would become unmanageable without a great deal of pre-planning, detailed track sheets, and lots of aspirin. EDIT: See following post.

 

[Mark Richards]

...once VTs had been recorded for different song parts, you could select VT3 for part 1, VT1 for part 2, VT4 for part 3 and so on...

Re: recording a song in sections:

• Track 1 would have to contain Section 1 of instrument #1. Auto Punch + Repeat could record automatically up to 8 takes of instrument #1, Section 1 on Vtracks 1~8 of Track 1.
• Track 2 would have to contain Section 2 of instrument #1, beginning where section 1 ends sequentially. Auto Punch + Repeat could record automatically up to 8 takes of instrument #1, Section 2 on Vtracks 1~8 of Track 2.
• Etc. for however many sections instrument #1 might require to complete the song.
• Instrument #1 could then be assembled from the desired active VTracks of Track 1, Track 2, etc. either by doing a Mixdown/Export/Import, or a Bounce, of the sequential Track sections to create one contiguous "perfect" recording of all the instrument #1 sections.

Rinse and repeat for each instrument and vocal track you need to time slice. Very complex and time intensive, but could be do-able with a well thought out plan.

Final thought: The Production Tips sticky thread has several posts by -mjk- and me that demonstrate creative ways like this to use Vtracks alone and in combination with AutoPunch and other functions to expand the capabilties of the DP-24/32/SD.

 

[Phil Tipping]

Well that was an interesting, albeit geeky, experiment
With my machine, starting an auto-punch+repeat with the current vtrack set to higher than one causes a "writing failed" error.

I didn't repeat your exact steps but just recorded 10 seconds of audio on each of the vtracks. It confirmed that auto-punch+repeat always starts recording onto the armed track at vtrack1, and unless you stop it prematurely, it works its way through to vtrack8 before stopping. It does this regardless of which of its vtracks was current.

Any existing audio is overwritten with the original track contents (i.e. the original vtrack) plus the new punched-in audio for that take.

This is as expected, except for the case where your original vtrack is not 1, in which case it will be overwritten like the others when the repeat process reaches it. I think this may confuse the machine as the source has now changed. There also seemed to be a longer turn-round delay for each pass once it reached the original vtrack.

The error wasn't major, in that you could press F1 to return to the song, although there was a strange anomaly at first... there was a coloured line on the timeline display in between the IN & OUT points which wouldn't disappear. I tried track Clean Out, Delete Unused, and even loaded the blank 'reset' template song, it still wouldn't go. I could only get rid of it by switching off & on.

I repeated the test to see if it was real audio or just a display quirk, and found it cleared if I pressed Stop again after the error. The display showed the usual spinning spools briefly, which it hadn't before so I guess it hadn't finished updating the files properly.

If you can replicate any of this, I'll report it as a bug.

Back to the original issue: I agree with Mark in that it seems reasonable to treat Repeat mode in Auto-punch as being for 'multiple take' purposes and that by using this function, you're handing over all 8 vtracks for the machine to use, in which case using them for both this function and time-slicing parts of a song could get confusing.

 

[Mark Richards]

Some follow-up/summary:

1. Auto Punch alone can be initiated succesfully on any VTrack.
2. Auto Punch + Repeat can be initiated successfully only when starting with Vtrack 1.
3. If Track 1/Vtrack 1 contains previously recorded information, when attempting to initiate Auto Punch + Repeat on Track 1's Vtrack 2 (typically the only "Unused" available initially):

• Signal intended for Vtrack 2 will overwrite Vtrack 1.
• Vtrack 2 will physically become Vtrack 1.
• Vtracks 3~7 can be filled.
• Vtrack 3 will physically become VTrack 2; 4 becomes 3, etc.
• "Write Fail" error appears when attempting to fill all Vtracks 2~8.

Every other anomaly (e.g., attempting to use Auto Punch + Repeat for Vtracks 2 et al at other points in the song) flows from this basic anomaly: Track 1/Vtrack 2 will always overwrite the entire length of VTrack 1 up to the current Out point (not just the Track 1/Vtrack 1 content between the current In/Out points).

... there was a coloured line on the timeline display in between the IN & OUT points which wouldn't disappear...If you can replicate any of this, I'll report it as a bug.

Not seeing it Phil. After clearing the write-fail pop up and returning to the multitrack screen, the only line I see is the normal filled-track color between the In/Out points.

=============================================================
For those interested, here's my completed tests, starting from a blank slate with only Track 1/Vtrack 1 available.

TEST 1

1. Record 10 seconds of vocal on Track 1/Vtrack 1 using only Auto Punch.
2. Track 1/Vtrack 1 signal is captured
3. Recording stops at the Out point and resets to the In point.
4. Load next Vtrack
5. Enage Auto Punch
6. Record additional individual takes one at a time.
7. Remaining 7 Vtracks of Track 1 can be filled with additional takes
8. Each of the 8 Vtracks has the vocal content intended for that Vtrack.
9. Each of the 8 Vtracks can be selected/activated for playback.

TEST 2

1. Engage Auto Punch + Repeat
2. Record 10 seconds of vocal beginning with Track 1/Vtrack 1.
3. Remaining 7 Vtracks of Track 1 are filled automatically with additional vocal takes.
4. Each of the 8 Vtracks has the vocal content intended for that Vtrack.
5. Each of the 8 Vtracks can be selected/activated for playback.

IMO, Tests 1 & 2 are the intended purpose/uses of Auto Punch and Auto Punch + Repeat.

TEST 3

1. Record 10 seconds of vocal on Track 1/Vtrack 1 using only Auto Punch.
2. Track 1/Vtrack 1 signal is captured.
3. Recording stops at the Out point and resets to the In point.
4. Load Track1/Vtrack 2
5. Engage Auto Punch + Repeat
6. Record 10 seconds of various vocals (to differentiate signals) on Track 1/Vtrack 2~4.

Results:

• The Track 1/Vtrack 2 overwrites the original vocal on Track 1/Vtrack 1 and physically becomes Vtrack 1
• What should be Vtrack 3 physically becomes Vtrack 2; what should be Vtrack 4 physically becomes Vtrack 3.
• Each alternate Vtrack vocal can be selected and made active.
• The original recorded vocal is gone.

TEST 4

1. Record 10 seconds of vocal on Track 1/Vtrack 1 using only Auto Punch.
2. Track 1/Vtrack 1 signal is captured.
3. Recording stops at the Out point and resets to the In point.
4. Load Track1/Vtrack 2
5. Engage Auto Punch + Repeat
6. Record 10 seconds of various vocals (to differentiate signals) on Track 1/Vtrack 2~8.

Results:

• Track 1/Vtracks 2~8 are not written and a "Write Fail" error displays.
• As in Test 3, Vtrack 2 overwrites Vtrack 1 and physically becomes Vtrack 1.
• Track 1/Vtrack2 shows as "Unused".
• There are no further Vtracks displayed.
• The original recorded vocal is gone.

=============================================================

 

[Phil Tipping]

Not seeing it Phil. After clearing the write-fail pop up and returning to the multitrack screen, the only line I see is the normal filled-track color between the In/Out points

Thanks for checking this Mark. Yes the line is there on mine, but the problem was I couldn't delete it. If you've got the patience to rerun the test, here are my exact steps.

• Provoke the error message.
• Press F1 to acknowledge the error.
• Do not press any of the transport controls from now on.
  
• If the virtual track screen is open, press VTRACKS to exit.
• If AUTO PUNCH and/or REPEAT are lit, press them to exit.
• If the home screen is not showing the timeline, press TIMELINE to display the coloured bar.
• Press Track Edit and do a Clean Out on that track. The bar doesn't disappear.

 

[Stew71]

Thanks Mark and Phil for experimenting with this.

I've just carried out some similar tests (including testing whether or not having a single-pass whole-track 'dummy track' in place first makes any difference; it doesn't), and it does seem that the only way to preserve all virtual track recordings across different song sections on the same physical track (with AutoPunch), is to manually select different virtual tracks before each recording pass.

Using AutoPunch with Repeat, whilst much more efficient (requiring zero between-pass keypresses, vs quite a number to select the new v-track, enable AutoPunch, and hit record when not using Repeat) always results in audio being overwritten and loss of most takes.

(This is also worth knowing about if you use v-tracks for storage, for example to keep safe the original source tracks from a bounce: if I have my original rhythm guitars sitting in Virtual Tracks of say tracks 11 and 12, then start working on a new guitar part on other VTs on those two tracks, if I use AutoPunch and Repeat at some point, I am risking losing (all or part) of the original 'stored' tracks potentially.)

I think this is a real shame, and certainly a bug. For me it's a pretty important one: I would like to be able to quickly record multiple takes of different song sections on the same track. I know now that I can do it, but in a much clunkier way than is presumably intended.

I did contact Tascam a couple of days ago, and have linked to this thread, so hopefully they will pick up on it and, I would hope, introduce a fix at some stage.

But for me, I'll go manual (in terms of VT selection) and make sure I'm exporting tracks to the Audio Depot as well.

 

[Phil Tipping]

It's a good point Stew. The question would be where would you expect it to store the multiple takes?
I can only guess they added auto-punch+repeat after virtual tracks were already in place, in which case it was probably a quick and easy decision to just store them in the vtracks (overwriting v1 to v8 without really thinking it through that this would clash with using vtracks for your own use).
My 2 cents would be to add another set of 8 vtracks and reserve them for multiple takes only. There shouldn't be much overhead firmware-wise as the vtracks are just files on the sd-card; all it needs are another 8 pointers and a bit of code in the firmware... I say "all it needs" glibly as I know how hard it is to cram functionality into these embedded systems Kudos to the designers for achieving so much already.

 

[Mark Richards]

...the line is there on mine, but the problem was I couldn't delete it. If you've got the patience to rerun the test, here are my exact steps.

I replicated your result, Phil.

...
I can only guess they added auto-punch+repeat after virtual tracks were already in place...

I think the intent has always been to start the Auto Punch + Repeat function from VTrack 1; or use just Auto Punch stand-alone for doing additional VTrack takes.

The original 2488, the MK II, and the NEO all had the same thing, but called them "Takes", not "VTracks". The 2488 MK II and NEO OM descriptions (page 55-57):

You can also use the repeat function together with the auto punch operations, allowing you to make...repeated takes of the same section (multi-takes)...With multi-take recording, you can choose the best recording after recording many takes, one after the other.

When you have finished the auto punch recording...highlight the take which you feel is the best (or if none of them was any good, select ORIGINAL, which is the unchanged version).​

Back in the day, working with tape, we'd do a rolling punch overdub of the particular track; or have the band do several complete multi-track takes of the song section and do a cut 'n splice later on. Maybe that practice somehow influenced the thinking of the portastudio design engineers.
M2CW