Print Compression, EQ & FX to Track?

[Matthew Fogel]

Moderator Note: I copied this post from another thread because it's very relevant to this topic. Mr. Fogel points out that the workflow resembles standard analog tape engineering practices. @-mjk-
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Hey Chris! I just purchased the Tascam Model 24 in order to record my indie jam band's improv sessions off the floor from our rehearsal space. I can confirm that you can do both tasks you desire. The 16 and 24 are both essentially a small format (16) or medium format (24) old school analogue mixing desk that has internal sends to USB and/or the internal Digital Recorder just after the low-cut and compressor and just before the channel EQ, fader and pan. As Phil pointed out, the input select depends whether the source is the mic pres (which are really quiet modern Tascam pres same as they use in their digital interfaces), or the USB interface return from the PC/Mac, or the Multitrack recorder.

So low-cut and compressor will print to the MTR or your DAW, but everything else can be mixed down later. It's essentially the same workflow as analogue to tape except with a digital recorder instead of tape. It actually feels like the exact same workflow as mixing down to tape.

I think this would be a good option for you to teach your students analogue mixing workflow as you state in option 2.

One caveat. When I bought it, I pre-ordered a 256gb SDxc, however the mixer shipped with only the 1.0 firmware installed and that doesn't recognize above 128 so I had to go spend another couple of bucks to get a second class 10 SD of 32gb in order to update the firmware of the device. Once I did that, I was able to format the 256gb SDxc card on the Model 24 and it works great.

I very nearly bought the Zoom L-20 and another of my bandmates actually has the L-12 and they are both fine, but I was attracted to the true hybrid quality of the Model 24. And although I've seen some chatter in the forum about how it would be better if it had external sends for each channel so that it could be paired with a better quality I/O (ie: TASCAM US-20X20 20-IN/20-OUT USB 3.0 INTERFACE has the same pres but is USB 3 and allows up to 192kHz/24-bit recording)
I suspect that TEAC/TASCAM didn't want to cannibalize their existing home recording market so they limited this to 48/24 max.

Still, at only $1000USD, I'm quite impressed with what this can do.

Cheers,

Matt

 

[zozoe]

Thanks MARK RICHARDS & MJK, great info, but until I can get a hold of the right person at Tascam, or hear from someone here firsthand, I'll need to know if the EQ & Compression get recorded when performing basic tracks...NOT FX or Reverb, but EQ & COMP..... Of course I can always add it later at mixdown, but I want it printed to SD!! I'd like to hear from an actual owner,,, MODEL 12 & 16 in particular.
Thanks guys & gals~

 

[Blue Monster 65]

No - EQ and effects are not recorded until mixdown on the individual tracks on the Model 16.

 

[Mark Richards]

The Block Diagram for the Model 24 indicates the Low-Cut filter and the Compressor are printed to the individual MTR tracks when tracking. It indicates everything else is only printed on mixdown.

I suggest tracing the Block Diagram in the OM for the Model 12 to confirm. The Model 12 may be different.

 

[Blue Monster 65]

Compressor, yes. I don’t know about the low-cut filter, but that would make sense (I’ve never used it on this board). I’m using the Model 16, btw.

 

[Mark Richards]

Also in the post by Matthew Fogal re the Model 24:
"So low-cut and compressor will print to the MTR or your DAW, but everything else can be mixed down later."

But again, may be different for Model 12. Best bet is to look through the Model 12 OM to see if it differs from its bigger siblings.

 

[zozoe]

MARK RICHARDS,,, so can we now all confidently agree that the 12 & 16, and the 24 & 32 for that matter, will NOT permit the recording of EQ or Comp when you are tracking? Also, as far as the Compressor goes, could you approximate what degree of compression it has?
Thanks again for the great info, and even if all these avove things don't print to tape (SD), I still think the 16 is for me. Again, no PC, no future need to edit, & no need for an external CD burner (just mix on to 15/16), correct?

 

[Mark Richards]

No agreement. Suggest you d/l the Model 12 OM. I don't have the time to investigate all the similarities and dissimilarities among the Models 12/16/24 ( don't own any of these).

 

[-mjk-]

@zozoe please allow me to point a few things out to you, because you seem hung up on printing FX, EQ and compression, etc. to tracks and this apparently is a condition of purchase.

We need to consider recording engineering practices:

When you apply EQ and FX to a track, you are hearing it on the main stereo master bus. During a recording session in a real studio, as the record progresses, the engineer makes adjustments to the mix as tracks are added. EQ and FX used during the recording process typically are not recorded on the tracks, but instead the returns are going to the main stereo bus. Dynamics, however are usually recorded to keep levels within a reasonable range. These machines operate much the same way, to prevent mistakes with EQ and FX being made early on in the process. It matters because EQ applied to a track in the clear may not work at all in the mix. This is a hard lesson to learn because one might not be able to recover from that. As long as you are hearing the EQ and FX how you like them, you can print that to the mixdown. This is SOP for professional recording engineers. It also explains why these machines operate how they do. They are not faulty, or "limited". They operate like a professional recording console. Seriously, if you need to double EQ, something isn't right. Also consider that if you record EQ, then, the moment you finish and want to play the track back, you must reset the EQ to zero or you'll be double EQing the track on playback. If you need to punch-in, you have to put the EQ back where it was.

Set up your inputs. Add compression and whatever FX and EQ you want. Record the tracks. They will play back on the same channels with the same FX/EQ you have set up but only the compression will be recorded (for the reasons stated above). But, you can change your mind later (or not) because you're monitoring the EQ/FX on the playback only. Build up the tracks, make adjustments and finally your mix will be almost finished by the time you're ready to do a mixdown.

What matters is, does the machine you are considering have the functions and track count you need?

 

[zozoe]

Yes, yes, & yes,,,, if I need much EQ at all, something's wrong. Yeah, I wouldn't want you to do all this dirty work,, you've already done a lot. If I got a hold of the path & diagram, I could probably figure it out... So, not compression to SD either, I assume? I think the 12 & 16 are identical except for the extra I/O's. I'm just looking at doing myself, 12 string, lap, lead, fun stuff, 2 nice condensers,,,,, Been there, done that, worked in a real studio, had my own real studio, 2 Alesis HD24's. So I'm very comfortable, but space is an issue,,,, plus 14 real tracks on the Model 16 should rock,, & hopefully has 2 or 3 great reverb patches,,, record onto 14 treks, 2 to mix onto? I'll be very good!!

 

[-mjk-]

The user manuals all have block diagrams. Check it out.

The 12 is all digital. The other 2 are hybrid.

 

[-mjk-]

@zozoe said:

MARK RICHARDS,,, so can we now all confidently agree that the 12 & 16, and the 24 & 32 for that matter, will NOT permit the recording of EQ or Comp when you are tracking?

Low pass and compression yes. EQ, no. (Kenny, are you not reading all the messages in this thread?) There is no Model 32. The Model 12 may be different. I don't know/care.

Again, no PC, no future need to edit, & no need for an external CD burner (just mix on to 15/16), correct?

Asked and answered in detail, multiple times (again with the CD burner. I thought that was well covered already).

Also, as far as the Compressor goes, could you approximate what degree of compression it has?

No. But you're free to look it up in the OM and post it if you like.

 

[Freebird]

(Specifications) https://tascam.com/downloads/products/tascam/model_16/model-16_e-spec_om_va.pdf

(Owners Manual) https://tascam.com/downloads/products/tascam/model_16/efs_model-16_om_va.pdf

(Tascam Manuals Download) https://tascam.com/us/product/model_16/download

 

[zozoe]

yes, MJK,,, I do read the responses multiple times, but when I come across 2 different responses about the the same topic, not from you personally, I find the need to press on & make the right choice. While I have you, when it states one unit is analog & others are hybrid, exactly what is being referred to? I know they all burn to SD, and I do not plan to be using a computer for anything. This, as I have said, is more for my own noodling, but if I ever DID find a need to mass produce, edit, master, etc., by all means I would consider getting one. The Model 16 seems to have it all & is totally PC compatible....
Thnx again for answering my questions, albeit more than once!!
Stay safe and be well~

 

[-mjk-]

Kenny, the Model 24 and 16 are analog mixers that have a USB audio interface. The Model 12 is a digital mixer/USB interface with dedicated channel strips instead of a single set of controls like the Digital Portastudios. The first post in this thread explains the difference:

https://www.tascamforums.com/threads/basic-facts-model-24-16-12.7968/

While he Model 16 does have has a USB interface, the term "totally PC compatible" is subjective. Only the Model 12 can be used for DAW control (and apparently there are some disappointed 24 and 16 users who expected those were controllers too). They are all computer connectable, but only the Model 12 can be used for control. There are no motorized faders on any of the 3 models. I've never used any of these Model series, so I have no idea how they handle manual synchronization of the faders in DAW control mode.

Thanks. We are doing well in Taiwan.